Feelings toward converts/deconverts
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04-11-2014, 02:41 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 12:22 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 11:12 AM)Wolfbitn Wrote:  I only have 100 posts per day due to their limitations on me here... so Ill not be answering any spam

You have my open challenge... accept it like grown adults or run like little bitches, I don't care which you are

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...-CHALLENGE

^^^There's the challenge, take it or leave it

.

Yeah, you wouldn't want to waste them on similar posts and disrupting other people's threads. Rolleyes

We need more than one wielder of the ban hammer.

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04-11-2014, 04:42 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
Ya, um, Wolfbitn, I've been accused of being impatient many times. Trust me when I tell you, I am not reserving ANY of the little patience I do have for the likes of you.

Stop spamming.

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04-11-2014, 05:11 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
I'll acknowledge the OPs point (although I think hostility from the non-believers is more rare than not). But the "No real atheist/Christian could ever..." thing, does seem to come up on both sides.

I admit I'm torn. I very much like the earlier post that said going from atheism to theism is like water running up a hill. I fail to understand how an atheist could go to theism, unless the atheist was only atheist because they had not given the topic any amount of serious thought. But I wouldn't meet such a person with hostility. More likely I would meet them with wonder, for they are a creature that I just don't understand.

The reason I say I'm torn, is because my line of thought ends up sounding a lot like "No true atheist could get tricked into theism." Which obviously isn't a valid way to summarize. I guess it just shows how diverse the human mind is. Either way, it's not like atheism or theism define an individual. So ultimately it's no big deal as far as my relationship with that person goes (unless they make it one).

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04-11-2014, 09:46 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 05:11 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I'll acknowledge the OPs point (although I think hostility from the non-believers is more rare than not). But the "No real atheist/Christian could ever..." thing, does seem to come up on both sides.

I admit I'm torn. I very much like the earlier post that said going from atheism to theism is like water running up a hill.

Of course theists would see this the same, but the other way around, that the movement from atheism to theism, is one from a false understanding of life to a true one. This tells us more about the person drawing this view, than the actual convert. It just means in essence that we hold our view as true, and any opposing view as false, so a movement from truth to falsity would be a digression of sorts.

I have a good friend who recently lost his faith. I do see this as a digression, based on the fact that I hold Christianity to be true, and more importantly I hold truth as a thing of value, as a thing of meaning, so those who don't perceive the truth, or live their lives with it insight are living a false life in this regard. This is why I would perceive him as lost, this and also because I've been in his position before as well, and I tend to understand his situation along mines at the time.

He is the first person that I've been close with, who has lost their faith, and we are still as close as we ever was, if not more so. We go back and forth on these questions, and I have a dialogue that is next to impossible to have with non-believing strangers, about the meaning of faith, and his unbelief, in which we get to talk not just on the surface.

Quote:I fail to understand how an atheist could go to theism, unless the atheist was only atheist because they had not given the topic any amount of serious thought.

And I am inclined to think the same way of most atheists, that they are so because they haven't given the topic any amount of serious thought, beyond scratching the surface here and there, this applies both to their disbelief, as well as the God question. I know this view is going to rub some individuals here the wrong way, even though our feelings are likely to be mutual in regards to each other.


Quote: So ultimately it's no big deal as far as my relationship with that person goes (unless they make it one).

I agree.
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04-11-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 12:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  That said the passage you just quoted is not a better or more rational reason to believe in god.

I would be interested in hearing why you believing given that account, that his reason wouldn't be rational? What exactly makes it non-rational?
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04-11-2014, 11:30 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
^Basically the problem with Pascal's Wager is that it's argument applies to all unsupported claims rather than just the existence of the god he's apologizing for.

Following the logic of the Wager: You should worship the Christian god to avoid punishment, worship the Muslim god to avoid punishment, follow the Buddhist tennents to avoid punishment, follow the viking tennents to avoid punishment and worship the Raja to avoid punishment.

The Wager makes no distinction between any religion and the amount of pain it may visit upon you and is based on the idea that any of the claims may be factually true. As no distinction can be made about the veracity of the claims without supporting evidence and it is impossible to be a member of all religions, it is irrational to choose to be a member of any religion based on the idea that it may stave of future pain.

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04-11-2014, 11:40 PM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 11:30 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ^Basically the problem with Pascal's Wager is that it's argument applies to all unsupported claims rather than just the existence of the god he's apologizing for.

I wasn't sure it was directed to, but I assumed the arrow pointing to the above post indicates it was directed at me? If so, i'm not sure why you brought up Pascal's Wager, since i never said anything about it.
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05-11-2014, 12:13 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 05:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I've noticed that when a story circulates of a self-identified atheist converting to Christianity, or when a Christians loses his faith all together, and becomes an atheist, the comments from the parties they left, are typically very hostile. Folks will begin by doubting the authenticity of their abandoned view point, or remark on their lack of intelligence, their rebellious nature, call them delusional, deviants, etc....

Many of these folks appear to take the issue personally, taking it almost as a personal insult in a way. These folks are imagined as those who know less than we do, we never wonder if perhaps they might have known more or understood something we didn't. It's always imagined as a failing on their part, but never pondered if it's a failing on our part.

What is your typical reaction when you hear an account of a conversion? Why do you think you're compelled to feel this way? Would you feel the same if the person was one of your good friends? (for theists who like to respond the question should be understood as modified)

Context always matters.

There are those within apologetics who use their supposed former atheism as a marketing tool. They use it to give them a leg up, to say to their audience "I used to be one of them, but I changed my mind because all of you are already right!" It's a comforting lie that helps them sell more propaganda, and there are quite a few guilty of this (Kirk Cameron and Lee Strobel to name but a few). They talk about their supposed former atheism in a way that no atheists I have ever heard, read, or talked to ever describes it; usually because it's another not-so-subtle attempt at equivocation (claiming that 'atheists' believe things on faith too, etc.). To those 'former atheists' I say, "GO FUCK YOURSELVES YOU PANDERING OPPORTUNISTIC DISINGENUOUS CHARLATAN ASSHOLES!"

As for apatheists who take on a religion? Whatever. I guess they don't value the things I do as much as I do, or they're far more ignorant of the facts. Either way, it's not a slight against my position.

My father was raised Catholic, but fell out of practice long ago. He might have been an apatheist, but I don't know if he ever really questioned his faith or seriously examined it, but most likely he was just being apathetic (as confirmed by our subsequent talks). After this second divorce however, he was in a real emotional low spot, and guess what? He found Jesus, super convenient right? So yeah, emotional crutch? Arguably. I've had plenty of talks with my father, and two things have become quite clear; his stunning level of ignorance about his own cult, and the supreme level of confidence that goes with it. So the one time he tried pulling the "I know how you feel, I questioned it too once", I called him on his bullshit. I explained how his apathy was a far cry from my methodical, studied, and educated approach to the question. I advised him to never try that again, because while it might pass muster among others in his herd, I knew it was bullshit; and that I was deeply personally offended that he would try that kind of underhanded bullshit with me, his own son. Just because I was baptized to make his Catholic parent's happy doesn't mean that I have any legitimate claim to being a theists in any real sense, nor had I ever or would I ever try that line of facile reasoning. To his credit he never tried that line again with me at least, but who knows what he's said to other people?

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05-11-2014, 12:33 AM
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 11:40 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 11:30 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  ^Basically the problem with Pascal's Wager is that it's argument applies to all unsupported claims rather than just the existence of the god he's apologizing for.

I wasn't sure it was directed to, but I assumed the arrow pointing to the above post indicates it was directed at me? If so, i'm not sure why you brought up Pascal's Wager, since i never said anything about it.
That's officially the dumbest thing I've done on the internet in a while. Apros of nothing: a non-sequitur.

I'm sorry; I've got no idea what I meant or who I was talking to.

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

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05-11-2014, 03:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-11-2014 03:32 AM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: Feelings toward converts/deconverts
(04-11-2014 09:54 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(04-11-2014 12:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  That said the passage you just quoted is not a better or more rational reason to believe in god.

I would be interested in hearing why you believing given that account, that his reason wouldn't be rational? What exactly makes it non-rational?

I really have trouble believing that I would have to explain to you why coming to the conclusion on the existence of anything without evidence or compelling reasons but because "he just felt it was true", which is basically his argument when it's not being entirely fallacious, is not rational.
"Because I felt it was true" is not a rational justification for any belief.

I'm no doubt wasting my time here trying to explain what I mean but I will anyway:

Quote:"But then this young Nigerian farmer, just about as different from me in culture, experience, and ancestry as any two humans could be, spoke the words that will
forever be emblazoned in my mind: "I get the sense you are wondering why you came here," he said. "I have an answer for you. You came here for one reason. You came here for me."

I was stunned. Stunned that he could see so clearly into my heart, but even more stunned at the words he was speaking. I had plunged a needle close to his heart; he had directly impaled mine. With a few simple words he had put my grandiose dreams of being the great white doctor, healing the African mil lions, to shame. He was right. We are each called to reach out to others. On rare occasions that can happen on a grand scale. But most of the time it happens in simple acts of kindness of one person to another. Those are the events that really matter. The tears of relief that blurred my vision as I digested his words stemmed from indescribable reassurance—reassurance that there in that strange place for just that one moment, I was in harmony with The Easter Bunny's will, bonded together with this young man in a most unlikely but marvelous way.

Nothing I had learned from science could explain that experience. Nothing about the evolutionary explanations for human behavior could account for why it seemed so right for this privileged white man to be standing at the bedside of this young African farmer, each of them receiving something exceptional. This was what C. S. Lewis calls agape. It is the love that seeks no recompense. It is an affront to materialism and naturalism. And it is the sweetest joy that one can experience.
[....]

I also saw more clearly than ever before the author of that goodness and truth, the real True North, The Easter Bunny himself, revealing His holy nature by the way in which He has written this desire to seek goodness in all of our hearts."

How compelling a reason to believe in the Easter Bunny do you find that account? How rationally justified is the above view?

I could go through his claim line by line and show exactly why it's an irrational belief but I really don't think I have to. I think the difference between rationally justified beliefs and those that are not have been MORE then explained to you in your time here.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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