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09-09-2014, 09:22 AM
Feminism
I know this topic has been talked about a lot, so I can understand if some people just don't want to discuss it anymore. Even though I have been pretty frustrated by it myself, I haven't yet seen a detailed explanation that represents the issues as I see them. I would really enjoy some feedback.

As far as I understand the term, I am a feminist. I believe in and will advocate for the equal rights of men and women, especially social and political rights once denied to women. I support any one who is working to resolve gender related issues with aim to equality.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how this can be legitimately criticized by modern moral persons, especially Atheists who are well aware of the many abuses of women credited to religion. We simply ought to know better. The pastors and theocratic bullies on the right in political America are still operating on biblical morality, which when not categorizing women as chattel, is demanding their silence and submission. As far as I am concerned, these people are our enemies. Why waste time debating the finer points of video game interpretation when these people legitimately attack women's rights in the real world.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about some video games, or other trivial examples of misogyny. If you really go looking for it, you can find these ideas anywhere and everywhere, many of them meaningless and accidental. Does any serious grown up person really think that the creators of Mario constructed their game to send a social message to men and women about gender roles? I have seen examples of video games that display female supremacy and anti-male hatred. I wasn't offended, because it's a game. These kinds of examples are so unimportant and meaningless to the larger issue that debating them seems incredibly stupid to me. Show me a situation where a women or a man is denied equal pay and that should deserve our full attention, if we really care about real world equality.

The more I listen to complaints against feminism, the more I am convinced that they aren't aimed at feminism at all. Their complaints are not against equality. They usually are complaining about certain distinct behaviors and sometimes specific women who exhibit them. These individuals they complain about are not working towards equality for women and men. They are determined to further the supremacy and superiority of the female over the male. Not only do these people want women to have improved social recognition, they specifically want to do it by demonizing, slandering, attacking, and if all else fails, ignoring men. If they can reduce men's influence, rights, or received attention, they are a happy group. It is in this crowd that you might find your stereotypical "Femnazi" with a short haircut, camo pants, and an attitude of a metal grinder.

I don't call these people feminists. I call them Female Supremacists. I consider their positions immoral and harmful to our society. I consider their stance to be deeply opposed to equality, and deeply hostile and unapproachable. To be a man and attempt to argue with these women is to be banned from the discussion by default. As far as they are concerned, you don't get an opinion.

I think it is a mistake, and a confusing one at that, to criticize female supremacists by calling out "Feminism". One is in favor of equality, and the other explicitly is not. Feminism isn't going to stop being necessary and relevant, and we shouldn't want it to. I am in favor of equality for the rest of human history. Those who are suggesting we cast it aside simply because women have made significant progress in the last few decades is missing the whole damn point. I notice that none of the people who say that suggest that we remove laws protecting racial minorities. Why not? According to them hasn't equality already been achieved now that black people, and many others, are considered as full citizens and protected from discrimination? Of course not. They aren't always protected from discrimination and racism. We still have issues to handle. Feminism isn't any different. There isn't any reason for men to want to do away with it anymore than women because equality means that men benefit directly as well. That is the point of being considered as EQUAL.

I am beyond tired of listening to the moaning, whining, and bitching related to this. If anyone plans on doing more of it, it has better be in favor of equality, or I might lose my shit.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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09-09-2014, 09:39 AM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 09:22 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I know this topic has been talked about a lot, so I can understand if some people just don't want to discuss it anymore. Even though I have been pretty frustrated by it myself, I haven't yet seen a detailed explanation that represents the issues as I see them. I would really enjoy some feedback.

As far as I understand the term, I am a feminist. I believe in and will advocate for the equal rights of men and women, especially social and political rights once denied to women. I support any one who is working to resolve gender related issues with aim to equality.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how this can be legitimately criticized by modern moral persons, especially Atheists who are well aware of the many abuses of women credited to religion. We simply ought to know better. The pastors and theocratic bullies on the right in political America are still operating on biblical morality, which when not categorizing women as chattel, is demanding their silence and submission. As far as I am concerned, these people are our enemies. Why waste time debating the finer points of video game interpretation when these people legitimately attack women's rights in the real world.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about some video games, or other trivial examples of misogyny. If you really go looking for it, you can find these ideas anywhere and everywhere, many of them meaningless and accidental. Does any serious grown up person really think that the creators of Mario constructed their game to send a social message to men and women about gender roles? I have seen examples of video games that display female supremacy and anti-male hatred. I wasn't offended, because it's a game. These kinds of examples are so unimportant and meaningless to the larger issue that debating them seems incredibly stupid to me. Show me a situation where a women or a man is denied equal pay and that should deserve our full attention, if we really care about real world equality.

The more I listen to complaints against feminism, the more I am convinced that they aren't aimed at feminism at all. Their complaints are not against equality. They usually are complaining about certain distinct behaviors and sometimes specific women who exhibit them. These individuals they complain about are not working towards equality for women and men. They are determined to further the supremacy and superiority of the female over the male. Not only do these people want women to have improved social recognition, they specifically want to do it by demonizing, slandering, attacking, and if all else fails, ignoring men. If they can reduce men's influence, rights, or received attention, they are a happy group. It is in this crowd that you might find your stereotypical "Femnazi" with a short haircut, camo pants, and an attitude of a metal grinder.

I don't call these people feminists. I call them Female Supremacists. I consider their positions immoral and harmful to our society. I consider their stance to be deeply opposed to equality, and deeply hostile and unapproachable. To be a man and attempt to argue with these women is to be banned from the discussion by default. As far as they are concerned, you don't get an opinion.

I think it is a mistake, and a confusing one at that, to criticize female supremacists by calling out "Feminism". One is in favor of equality, and the other explicitly is not. Feminism isn't going to stop being necessary and relevant, and we shouldn't want it to. I am in favor of equality for the rest of human history. Those who are suggesting we cast it aside simply because women have made significant progress in the last few decades is missing the whole damn point. I notice that none of the people who say that suggest that we remove laws protecting racial minorities. Why not? According to them hasn't equality already been achieved now that black people, and many others, are considered as full citizens and protected from discrimination? Of course not. They aren't always protected from discrimination and racism. We still have issues to handle. Feminism isn't any different. There isn't any reason for men to want to do away with it anymore than women because equality means that men benefit directly as well. That is the point of being considered as EQUAL.

I am beyond tired of listening to the moaning, whining, and bitching related to this. If anyone plans on doing more of it, it has better be in favor of equality, or I might lose my shit.

I know, right? I read some of this stuff on here and think that people just have no idea what feminism is and what things were like for women just a few decades ago.

Quoting a few extremists who are not feminists but female supremacists or into misandry doesn't wipe out the wonderful things women's lib has achieved in the last few decades.

It's just as misguided as pointing at an atheist who happens to be a murderer and saying all atheists are murderers.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-09-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: Feminism
I agree for the most part. Though, there are a lot of self-proclaimed feminists on the web that have been pushing idiotic ideas, and they give the public a bad (and wrong) impression of what feminism really is. One can distance themselves with saying they are egalitarian humanists, though either way, I will evaluate what a person says overall.

On the forum bit with a lot of topics on feminism going around, it's been very civil in my eyes.
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09-09-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 09:22 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I know this topic has been talked about a lot, so I can understand if some people just don't want to discuss it anymore. Even though I have been pretty frustrated by it myself, I haven't yet seen a detailed explanation that represents the issues as I see them. I would really enjoy some feedback.

As far as I understand the term, I am a feminist. I believe in and will advocate for the equal rights of men and women, especially social and political rights once denied to women. I support any one who is working to resolve gender related issues with aim to equality.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how this can be legitimately criticized by modern moral persons, especially Atheists who are well aware of the many abuses of women credited to religion. We simply ought to know better. The pastors and theocratic bullies on the right in political America are still operating on biblical morality, which when not categorizing women as chattel, is demanding their silence and submission. As far as I am concerned, these people are our enemies. Why waste time debating the finer points of video game interpretation when these people legitimately attack women's rights in the real world.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about some video games, or other trivial examples of misogyny. If you really go looking for it, you can find these ideas anywhere and everywhere, many of them meaningless and accidental. Does any serious grown up person really think that the creators of Mario constructed their game to send a social message to men and women about gender roles? I have seen examples of video games that display female supremacy and anti-male hatred. I wasn't offended, because it's a game. These kinds of examples are so unimportant and meaningless to the larger issue that debating them seems incredibly stupid to me. Show me a situation where a women or a man is denied equal pay and that should deserve our full attention, if we really care about real world equality.

The more I listen to complaints against feminism, the more I am convinced that they aren't aimed at feminism at all. Their complaints are not against equality. They usually are complaining about certain distinct behaviors and sometimes specific women who exhibit them. These individuals they complain about are not working towards equality for women and men. They are determined to further the supremacy and superiority of the female over the male. Not only do these people want women to have improved social recognition, they specifically want to do it by demonizing, slandering, attacking, and if all else fails, ignoring men. If they can reduce men's influence, rights, or received attention, they are a happy group. It is in this crowd that you might find your stereotypical "Femnazi" with a short haircut, camo pants, and an attitude of a metal grinder.

I don't call these people feminists. I call them Female Supremacists. I consider their positions immoral and harmful to our society. I consider their stance to be deeply opposed to equality, and deeply hostile and unapproachable. To be a man and attempt to argue with these women is to be banned from the discussion by default. As far as they are concerned, you don't get an opinion.

I think it is a mistake, and a confusing one at that, to criticize female supremacists by calling out "Feminism". One is in favor of equality, and the other explicitly is not. Feminism isn't going to stop being necessary and relevant, and we shouldn't want it to. I am in favor of equality for the rest of human history. Those who are suggesting we cast it aside simply because women have made significant progress in the last few decades is missing the whole damn point. I notice that none of the people who say that suggest that we remove laws protecting racial minorities. Why not? According to them hasn't equality already been achieved now that black people, and many others, are considered as full citizens and protected from discrimination? Of course not. They aren't always protected from discrimination and racism. We still have issues to handle. Feminism isn't any different. There isn't any reason for men to want to do away with it anymore than women because equality means that men benefit directly as well. That is the point of being considered as EQUAL.

I am beyond tired of listening to the moaning, whining, and bitching related to this. If anyone plans on doing more of it, it has better be in favor of equality, or I might lose my shit.

I so very much enjoyed reading this.
Well said you.

*Clapping*

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09-09-2014, 01:25 PM
RE: Feminism
What you are arguing in favor of is basically Betty Friedan second-wave feminism. Unfortunately that sort of feminism has been brutally murdered by modern "third-wave feminists" who continue to desecrate its corpse.

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09-09-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Feminism
The point where I disagree with you Dark Phoenix, is the strictly debate prohibitive attitude that so many people have adopted. Everyone here seems to believe in "equality", in whatever abstract terms that means, but nobody seems really interested in taking about existing inequalities. You are a self identified feminist, which is great, and you believe in the legal rights women, which is also great. You believe in things like the wage gap but you don't believe in cultural contributors to sexism (or at least don't feel it is important or present in some kinds of media). I don't agree with you, but that is fine, you can make an argument either way.

The problem is that it is not enough to say you don't agree, you must proclaim that you don't agree and then shame others for making their case. I am not asking to make up your mind for you, but if you are going to say I am wrong, or that my points are irrelevant, then don't shame me for saying you are wrong, and making the case for why my points are relevant. Pointing out gender disparities in our culture is useful. To say that representation of women in media does not reflect our attitudes about women, if not directly contribute to them, is rational indefensible. When I say I want equality for people of all genders, I mean equal in all things. Women should not just be the equal to men in the eyes of the law but the equal to men in all aspects of society. These are worthy and worthwhile topics of discussion that have everything to do with equality. You don't have to participate in the discussion if you don't want to, but don't actively discourage the debate from taking place in the first place. We have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, from the heated and passionate exchange of ideas. If you can bring yourself to put aside your bias and objectively examine them, then there is the possibility you might gain insights you were not capable of producing on your own. Nothing should be sacred. Lets tear into it and see what it is worth.
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09-09-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 10:00 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  I agree for the most part. Though, there are a lot of self-proclaimed feminists on the web that have been pushing idiotic ideas, and they give the public a bad (and wrong) impression of what feminism really is. One can distance themselves with saying they are egalitarian humanists, though either way, I will evaluate what a person says overall.

On the forum bit with a lot of topics on feminism going around, it's been very civil in my eyes.

I am extremely concerned that they are able to misrepresent Feminism so badly and not get called out at every turn. The fact that so many people are ignorant of legitimate Feminism is only making it easier to get duped by these anti-male bigots.

It could just seem hostile to me, since this is a hot button issue for me.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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09-09-2014, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 03:39 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 01:25 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  What you are arguing in favor of is basically Betty Friedan second-wave feminism. Unfortunately that sort of feminism has been brutally murdered by modern "third-wave feminists" who continue to desecrate its corpse.

If that is true, than it is a shame that that the "third-wave" is given the misnomer of Feminism. If that is really the face of Feminism today in the minds of the public, than shame on real Feminists for not fighting back. I for one am going to start right here on TTA and argue with anyone who says that they represent Feminism with hatred and bigotry towards half the race. The whole affair is DISGUSTING to me.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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09-09-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:05 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:25 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  What you are arguing in favor of is basically Betty Friedan second-wave feminism. Unfortunately that sort of feminism has been brutally murdered by modern "third-wave feminists" who continue to desecrate its corpse.

If that is true, than it is a shame that that the "third-wave" is given the misnomer of Feminism. If that is really the face of Feminism today in the minds of the public, than shame on real Feminists for not fighting back. I for one am going to start right here on TTA and argue with anyone who says that they represent Feminism with hatred and bigotry towards have the race. The whole affair is DISGUSTING to me.

Yabbut the "third wave" are mostly a figment of Res' fixation and imagination rather than being an actual problem.

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09-09-2014, 03:17 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 09:22 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  I know this topic has been talked about a lot, so I can understand if some people just don't want to discuss it anymore. Even though I have been pretty frustrated by it myself, I haven't yet seen a detailed explanation that represents the issues as I see them. I would really enjoy some feedback.

As far as I understand the term, I am a feminist. I believe in and will advocate for the equal rights of men and women, especially social and political rights once denied to women. I support any one who is working to resolve gender related issues with aim to equality.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how this can be legitimately criticized by modern moral persons, especially Atheists who are well aware of the many abuses of women credited to religion. We simply ought to know better. The pastors and theocratic bullies on the right in political America are still operating on biblical morality, which when not categorizing women as chattel, is demanding their silence and submission. As far as I am concerned, these people are our enemies. Why waste time debating the finer points of video game interpretation when these people legitimately attack women's rights in the real world.

Honestly, I don't give a damn about some video games, or other trivial examples of misogyny. If you really go looking for it, you can find these ideas anywhere and everywhere, many of them meaningless and accidental. Does any serious grown up person really think that the creators of Mario constructed their game to send a social message to men and women about gender roles? I have seen examples of video games that display female supremacy and anti-male hatred. I wasn't offended, because it's a game. These kinds of examples are so unimportant and meaningless to the larger issue that debating them seems incredibly stupid to me. Show me a situation where a women or a man is denied equal pay and that should deserve our full attention, if we really care about real world equality.

The more I listen to complaints against feminism, the more I am convinced that they aren't aimed at feminism at all. Their complaints are not against equality. They usually are complaining about certain distinct behaviors and sometimes specific women who exhibit them. These individuals they complain about are not working towards equality for women and men. They are determined to further the supremacy and superiority of the female over the male. Not only do these people want women to have improved social recognition, they specifically want to do it by demonizing, slandering, attacking, and if all else fails, ignoring men. If they can reduce men's influence, rights, or received attention, they are a happy group. It is in this crowd that you might find your stereotypical "Femnazi" with a short haircut, camo pants, and an attitude of a metal grinder.

I don't call these people feminists. I call them Female Supremacists. I consider their positions immoral and harmful to our society. I consider their stance to be deeply opposed to equality, and deeply hostile and unapproachable. To be a man and attempt to argue with these women is to be banned from the discussion by default. As far as they are concerned, you don't get an opinion.

I think it is a mistake, and a confusing one at that, to criticize female supremacists by calling out "Feminism". One is in favor of equality, and the other explicitly is not. Feminism isn't going to stop being necessary and relevant, and we shouldn't want it to. I am in favor of equality for the rest of human history. Those who are suggesting we cast it aside simply because women have made significant progress in the last few decades is missing the whole damn point. I notice that none of the people who say that suggest that we remove laws protecting racial minorities. Why not? According to them hasn't equality already been achieved now that black people, and many others, are considered as full citizens and protected from discrimination? Of course not. They aren't always protected from discrimination and racism. We still have issues to handle. Feminism isn't any different. There isn't any reason for men to want to do away with it anymore than women because equality means that men benefit directly as well. That is the point of being considered as EQUAL.

I am beyond tired of listening to the moaning, whining, and bitching related to this. If anyone plans on doing more of it, it has better be in favor of equality, or I might lose my shit.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I also think all of it is important. Your point about wage discrepancies vs. video games is a good one when applied to the order in which to focus efforts, but in the end it all matters.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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