Feminism
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09-09-2014, 03:24 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:05 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:25 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  What you are arguing in favor of is basically Betty Friedan second-wave feminism. Unfortunately that sort of feminism has been brutally murdered by modern "third-wave feminists" who continue to desecrate its corpse.

If that is true, than it is a shame that that the "third-wave" is given the misnomer of Feminism. If that is really the face of Feminism today in the minds of the public, than shame on real Feminists for not fighting back. I for one am going to start right here on TTA and argue with anyone who says that they represent Feminism with hatred and bigotry towards have the race. The whole affair is DISGUSTING to me.

That isn't true.

So there's that.

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09-09-2014, 03:25 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 03:05 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  If that is true, than it is a shame that that the "third-wave" is given the misnomer of Feminism. If that is really the face of Feminism today in the minds of the public, than shame on real Feminists for not fighting back. I for one am going to start right here on TTA and argue with anyone who says that they represent Feminism with hatred and bigotry towards have the race. The whole affair is DISGUSTING to me.

Yabbut the "third wave" are mostly a figment of Res' fixation and imagination rather than being an actual problem.

Actual third wave feminism is a real thing.

The man-hating feminazi cultural marxist castrationists who haunt little RP's dreams, not so much.

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09-09-2014, 03:30 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:05 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:25 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  What you are arguing in favor of is basically Betty Friedan second-wave feminism. Unfortunately that sort of feminism has been brutally murdered by modern "third-wave feminists" who continue to desecrate its corpse.

If that is true, than it is a shame that that the "third-wave" is given the misnomer of Feminism. If that is really the face of Feminism today in the minds of the public, than shame on real Feminists for not fighting back. I for one am going to start right here on TTA and argue with anyone who says that they represent Feminism with hatred and bigotry towards have the race. The whole affair is DISGUSTING to me.

I heavily disagree with the concept of real anything. I'm also not sure what you or Res think 3rd wave feminism represents. It's believing that culture and stereotypes also hurt the potential for better equal standing in socialites, opposed to mainly just the ideas that creating equal laws and making basic public opinion seem to be promoting equality that was marked by the 2nd wave concept.

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09-09-2014, 03:37 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 03:47 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 01:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The point where I disagree with you Dark Phoenix, is the strictly debate prohibitive attitude that so many people have adopted. Everyone here seems to believe in "equality", in whatever abstract terms that means, but nobody seems really interested in taking about existing inequalities. You are a self identified feminist, which is great, and you believe in the legal rights women, which is also great. You believe in things like the wage gap but you don't believe in cultural contributors to sexism (or at least don't feel it is important or present in some kinds of media). I don't agree with you, but that is fine, you can make an argument either way.

The problem is that it is not enough to say you don't agree, you must proclaim that you don't agree and then shame others for making their case. I am not asking to make up your mind for you, but if you are going to say I am wrong, or that my points are irrelevant, then don't shame me for saying you are wrong, and making the case for why my points are relevant. Pointing out gender disparities in our culture is useful. To say that representation of women in media does not reflect our attitudes about women, if not directly contribute to them, is rational indefensible. When I say I want equality for people of all genders, I mean equal in all things. Women should not just be the equal to men in the eyes of the law but the equal to men in all aspects of society. These are worthy and worthwhile topics of discussion that have everything to do with equality. You don't have to participate in the discussion if you don't want to, but don't actively discourage the debate from taking place in the first place. We have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, from the heated and passionate exchange of ideas. If you can bring yourself to put aside your bias and objectively examine them, then there is the possibility you might gain insights you were not capable of producing on your own. Nothing should be sacred. Lets tear into it and see what it is worth.

Okay, I think I hear you with regard to my attitude, which I know is angry and bitter. These gender related discussions really have a tendency to get my blood boiling. Honestly, I don't want to be prohibitive when it comes to debate. In fact, I would rather encourage it. So, I will cool down and take you up on your offer. I don't know if I can completely put aside my bias, but I will try. Let's tear into these issues and see what they are worth.

I also hear you with regard to shaming you and others. I apologize for what it's worth. I truly don't mean to shame you for having an opinion, or at all for that matter. What I mean to convey is that I despise arguments rooted in misogyny or misandry. I specifically despise it when certain individuals claim to represent Feminism and then rant and rave as an obvious misandrist.

I do believe in cultural contributors to sexism, and I believe that sexism is a problem that is often rampant, just like racism. I do believe that sexism and related ideas are present in media of all types.

I am skeptical as to just how much media representations of both females and males are accurate or even reflective of real world attitudes. It is my view that media generally misrepresents just about everyone. For example, imagine a movie scene where a group of thuggish young men attack and rape a young women in an alley. Should we complain about the scene because it represents women as weak, vulnerable, and easy to violate? Should we complain because it portrays men as brutal assholes who are ready and willing to violate others?

In this example, I don't think the makers of the film likely intended any of this kind of speculation at all. They were most likely trying to tell a story. In my experience these misandrists can make a case for anti-women media in just about anything they want. Just trying to tell a story or design a game these days will get you in trouble with some people over things I don't think were intended to begin with.

Now, I am open to the possibility that I just argued a straw man using a bad example. I don't know enough about your perspective and opinion on these media issues to even be sure if I am talking about the same thing as you. If nothing else, I am open to having you correct me and change my mind.

I am not sure I advocate full equality without exception. Biology for one thing seems to be a hindrance. Some things are just gender exclusive, like periods and childbirth. To what degree I do not know, but I think their ought to be some allowances in culture to help cater to gender specific situations. Maternity leave is a great example. As a man, I wouldn't need it. I wouldn't consider it unfair to have it denied me but given to my wife, even though it would be a technical inequality.

So, you're right when you say that we are probably defining equality differently. Sorry. This might get confusing.

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09-09-2014, 03:39 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:25 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 03:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yabbut the "third wave" are mostly a figment of Res' fixation and imagination rather than being an actual problem.

Actual third wave feminism is a real thing.

The man-hating feminazi cultural marxist castrationists who haunt little RP's dreams, not so much.

Because tumblr doesn't exist, and the views coming from it are not being perpetuated by leftist academia.

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09-09-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:39 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 03:25 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Actual third wave feminism is a real thing.

The man-hating feminazi cultural marxist castrationists who haunt little RP's dreams, not so much.

Because tumblr doesn't exist...

A fine straw man, good sirrah.

In case you weren't aware, there is a great deal of difference between "opinion X exists" and "opinion X is relevant" - let alone powerful or influential.

(09-09-2014 03:39 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  ... and the views coming from it are not being perpetuated by leftist academia.

I don't know; you tell me.
(hint: that means citation needed)

Remember, you're talking to someone who has actually been to universities.

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09-09-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:25 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 03:08 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yabbut the "third wave" are mostly a figment of Res' fixation and imagination rather than being an actual problem.

Actual third wave feminism is a real thing.

The man-hating feminazi cultural marxist castrationists who haunt little RP's dreams, not so much.

Okay, I will have to do some reading then. I am ignorant of these waves of Feminism. It is nice to know that though.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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09-09-2014, 03:51 PM
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:43 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 03:25 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Actual third wave feminism is a real thing.

The man-hating feminazi cultural marxist castrationists who haunt little RP's dreams, not so much.

Okay, I will have to do some reading then. I am ignorant of these waves of Feminism. It is nice to know that though.

To be overly crude, it's the general periodisation scheme for academic analysis. There's no more a clear ideological separation than there is an exact moment at which "medieval" history became "renaissance" history. The differences only manifest on longer terms.

First-wave generally corresponds to late 19th, early 20th century stuff - the single biggest issue was suffrage, and it was surprisingly related to the temperance movement.

Second-wave is the mid-20th century. Third-wave is late 20th century and the present. Second wave was classic "women's liberation", and establishing full legal equality. Third wave is more cultural and more related to class and race issues (because nominal legal equality isn't actual equality, and for a long time only rich white people could afford to be activists all day).

Anyway, I can also give you the same canned suggestion I give anyone wanting to learn about anything:
Look up some university gender studies departments, and check for course listings and information. The introductory courses should give a fair number of good texts you might consider looking at.
(I'm not saying go out and buy a shitload of textbooks, but any that are reasonably common can be acquired by - *ahem* - "other" means, and if they're older works you might also find them at public libraries)

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09-09-2014, 04:23 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 04:27 PM by CleverUsername.)
RE: Feminism
I'd just prefer a different term. I want equality on both sides, and using the term "feminism" just seems like the equivalent of calling myself a baseball fan when really I'm a fan of all sports (hypothetically, I don't really like sports).

(09-09-2014 09:22 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Honestly, I don't give a damn about some video games, or other trivial examples of misogyny. If you really go looking for it, you can find these ideas anywhere and everywhere, many of them meaningless and accidental. Does any serious grown up person really think that the creators of Mario constructed their game to send a social message to men and women about gender roles? I have seen examples of video games that display female supremacy and anti-male hatred. I wasn't offended, because it's a game. These kinds of examples are so unimportant and meaningless to the larger issue that debating them seems incredibly stupid to me. Show me a situation where a women or a man is denied equal pay and that should deserve our full attention, if we really care about real world equality.

I think my view's been poisoned by this type of thing, since it's what I get exposed to most, the whole "Let's look at media and pick it apart until we find something to offended by" type thing. Some of the "issues" are so stupid I end up defending things I hate. It does a fantastic job of downplaying any genuine sexism that may be happening by making it look like they just have ridiculously thin skin and are actively searching for something to hate.

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09-09-2014, 04:34 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2014 04:40 PM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: Feminism
(09-09-2014 03:37 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The point where I disagree with you Dark Phoenix, is the strictly debate prohibitive attitude that so many people have adopted. Everyone here seems to believe in "equality", in whatever abstract terms that means, but nobody seems really interested in taking about existing inequalities. You are a self identified feminist, which is great, and you believe in the legal rights women, which is also great. You believe in things like the wage gap but you don't believe in cultural contributors to sexism (or at least don't feel it is important or present in some kinds of media). I don't agree with you, but that is fine, you can make an argument either way.

The problem is that it is not enough to say you don't agree, you must proclaim that you don't agree and then shame others for making their case. I am not asking to make up your mind for you, but if you are going to say I am wrong, or that my points are irrelevant, then don't shame me for saying you are wrong, and making the case for why my points are relevant. Pointing out gender disparities in our culture is useful. To say that representation of women in media does not reflect our attitudes about women, if not directly contribute to them, is rational indefensible. When I say I want equality for people of all genders, I mean equal in all things. Women should not just be the equal to men in the eyes of the law but the equal to men in all aspects of society. These are worthy and worthwhile topics of discussion that have everything to do with equality. You don't have to participate in the discussion if you don't want to, but don't actively discourage the debate from taking place in the first place. We have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, from the heated and passionate exchange of ideas. If you can bring yourself to put aside your bias and objectively examine them, then there is the possibility you might gain insights you were not capable of producing on your own. Nothing should be sacred. Lets tear into it and see what it is worth.

Okay, I think I hear you with regard to my attitude, which I know is angry and bitter. These gender related discussions really have a tendency to get my blood boiling. Honestly, I don't want to be prohibitive when it comes to debate. In fact, I would rather encourage it. So, I will cool down and take you up on your offer. I don't know if I can completely put aside my bias, but I will try. Let's tear into these issues and see what they are worth.

I also hear you with regard to shaming you and others. I apologize for what it's worth. I truly don't mean to shame you for having an opinion, or at all for that matter. What I mean to convey is that I despise arguments rooted in misogyny or misandry. I specifically despise it when certain individuals claim to represent Feminism and then rant and rave as an obvious misandrist.

Hey, I am not upset. My comment was directed indirectly at many people. I saw something in your posts that reminded me of something I had read on other peoples post, so in effect I was trying to address all of them. I don't think you intended to discourage debate, although that sentiment often leads that way.

It has been my experience that people are very reluctant to criticize their own culture. Their is a deeply emotional component to story telling, dance, imagery and iconography, and food. We have social rituals that we grow up with and learn to embrace as our personal and cultural identity. When someone challenges that it is often the case that the person being challenged reacts defensively and emotionally (myself included). When you add a layer of social stigma on top of it, it is not surprising to me how difficult it is to discuss feminism, although it is frustrating. However, if you accept that the problems with gender equality go deeper than the law, and that at least some aspects of it reside in our culture, then the only way to solve those problems is to look introspectively and critically at our culture. How we, as a society, think about women is not going to change if we don't challenge the way we think.

Quote:
I do believe in cultural contributors to sexism, and I believe that sexism is a problem that is often rampant, just like racism. I do believe that sexism and related ideas are present in media of all types.

I am skeptical as to just how much media representations of both females and males are accurate or even reflective of real world attitudes. It is my view that media generally misrepresents just about everyone. For example, imagine a movie scene where a group of thuggish young men attack and rape a young women in an alley. Should we complain about the scene because it represents women as weak, vulnerable, and easy to violate? Should we complain because it portrays men as brutal assholes who are ready and willing to violate others?

In this example, I don't think the makers of the film likely intended any of this kind of speculation at all. They were most likely trying to tell a story. In my experience these misandrists can make a case for anti-women media in just about anything they want. Just trying to tell a story or design a game these days will get you in trouble with some people over things I don't think were intended to begin with.

In your example I don't think the "thuggish males" raping the "helpless woman" says anything about men or women, although it probably does say a lot about the kinds of men that rape and the kinds of woman who become victims. As a story telling element it is simple and effective; the bad guys have these bad attributes and do these bad things to this good person. In isolation that isn't sexist.

When you are trying to analyze something is it is usually helpful to compare it to something else. If the ONLY portrayal of female victims where weak helpless damsels, then that may say something we didn't intent to say about female victims. It doesn't have to be malicious to be present. I wouldn't argue that we should pass laws or create institutions to control the kinds of stories we tell. It can be the case that you consume a piece of media, enjoy it, while still recognizing some of the questionable elements within said media. There is value in identifying something for what it is even if you don't change it. Just by pointing it out can diminish its power over yourself and other people.

In Anita's feminist frequency video she leads with mario as a demonstration of the damsel in distress trope. For illustrative purposes, mario is probably the best example of the trope. That doesn't mean mario is a sexist game, or that people should stop playing it. The people who consume mario as a media and the people who create it are not misogynists. Still, taking the time to see the elements of the mario story that could potentially be harmful to the perception of woman is valuable. It reminds us to view and portray women in other lights. It diminishes the influence of that trope on our perception of women.

When you are talking about a piece of media as a cultural influence it is important to take into account the context for which the media was consumed. In your example, if the men who attacked the women where all black men, and the media was meant for consumption in our culture, then that would be strong evidence if racial prejudice. However, the scenario consumed in a different cultural context, say in an African culture, might not imply the same thing.

Examining a piece of media and trying to understand "what it means" is complicated and rarely straight forward processing. However, that doesn't mean that you can't make good conclusions or create strong arguments.

Quote:I am not sure I advocate full equality without exception. Biology for one thing seems to be a hindrance. Some things are just gender exclusive, like periods and childbirth. To what degree I do not know, but I think their ought to be some allowances in culture to help cater to gender specific situations. Maternity leave is a great example. As a man, I wouldn't need it. I wouldn't consider it unfair to have it denied me but given to my wife, even though it would be a technical inequality.

So, you're right when you say that we are probably defining equality differently. Sorry. This might get confusing.

In a very narrow context there are biological inequalities that are often times impossible to resolve. Women, by virtue of being born with two X chromosomes instead of only one, are far more likely to survive infancy and early child hood. Women, by virtue of having ovaries, must suffer all of the physical effects of child birth. However, nobody is trying to argue that men and women are equal, or should be equal, on a physical level. Biology should never be used to justify a social inequality; it is not ok to prohibit women from military service because, on average, men are stronger than women, for example. Men should not be excused from sexual violence or sexual misconduct because men, on average, appear to have a stronger and more immediate sex drive. You have to be very, very careful when bringing up biological differences as a justification for some arguments. I think almost always it is entirely irrelevant.
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