Feminism, Rape and Immigration
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09-09-2014, 02:00 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 01:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:32 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Actually, in response to spino's post I actually am an aspie too. So seriously fuck off with your personal attacks EK.

... And I'm a fucking gorilla. So what? We gonna give you guys a pass to be dickheads 'cos you're so fragile?

We aren't the ones making personal attacks.

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09-09-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 01:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:32 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  Actually, in response to spino's post I actually am an aspie too. So seriously fuck off with your personal attacks EK.

... And I'm a fucking gorilla. So what? We gonna give you guys a pass to be dickheads 'cos you're so fragile?

No I think he just meant that we should talk to each other like civilised people. Less insults and accusations thrown around. It at the very least allows us to understand the opposing position a bit better.
The fastest way to radicalise one's self is to argue and expose yourself with opposing radicals. Exposure to huge amounts of creationist rhetoric has rendered me a heavy anti-creationist. I am really a moderate egalitarian, and sometimes, I think, feminists may have a point. But when the arguments are so heated, agreements that could have been reached are now impossible because of the heavy divide. This should really be a discussion, bringing direct, genuine arguments to the table rather than flinging shit.

I can take the insults. My skin is a bit too thick to be penetrated by someone calling me stupid over an internet forum. I just think it is tedious to have to defend one's self from false accusations of bigotry as it is most of the time not really the conversation I want to have. I am seeking solutions to problems. If somebody can offer their idea on a course of action, and we can all examine it and weigh out the pros and cons without wasting time, it may be a more productive place to be.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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09-09-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:12 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 01:41 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... And I'm a fucking gorilla. So what? We gonna give you guys a pass to be dickheads 'cos you're so fragile?

No I think he just meant that we should talk to each other like civilised people. Less insults and accusations thrown around. It at the very least allows us to understand the opposing position a bit better.
The fastest way to radicalise one's self is to argue and expose yourself with opposing radicals. Exposure to huge amounts of creationist rhetoric has rendered me a heavy anti-creationist. I am really a moderate egalitarian, and sometimes, I think, feminists may have a point. But when the arguments are so heated, agreements that could have been reached are now impossible because of the heavy divide. This should really be a discussion, bringing direct, genuine arguments to the table rather than flinging shit.

I can take the insults. My skin is a bit too thick to be penetrated by someone calling me stupid over an internet forum. I just think it is tedious to have to defend one's self from false accusations of bigotry as it is most of the time not really the conversation I want to have. I am seeking solutions to problems. If somebody can offer their idea on a course of action, and we can all examine it and weigh out the pros and cons without wasting time, it may be a more productive place to be.

Sorry kid, not buying your act no morez. If you continue to play nice then maybe, but dickery shall be met with bigger cocks.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-09-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry kid, not buying your act no morez. If you continue to play nice then maybe, but dickery shall be met with bigger cocks.

I am not sure why everyone assumes I am trolling. Is there some method to determining trolls I am unaware of? Everything I have said so far has been genuine.
Remember, aspergers. Lack of social skills. Atypical use of language. I may send red flags, but these are unintentional, and most likely just because my brain works a little different. At the very least give me enough credit to accept that I believe what I say.
When responding to arguments, my wording may come across as intellectually superior and maybe condescending, but I do mean well.
As for the "playing nice" I didn't really start it. I only posted a highly speculative comment and got hounded for it. I attempted to explain my position, while also responding to several criticisms of misogyny. Not an easy task. I mean, if this were purely banter, I would let it slide, but considering that most attacks I take as genuine (I give my critics that level of respect), I have no choice but to respond. I may be sarcastic, a bit over the top, or use hyperbole without it being obvious, but when somebody is saying you hate half of the human race and they may actually believe that position, you prefer to set them straight, or what are you going to get, "ooh he hasn't denied it!" and no I won't stand for it. Note how I have tried to derail the vitriol numerous times when I realised it wasn't an isolated thing.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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09-09-2014, 02:36 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:30 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry kid, not buying your act no morez. If you continue to play nice then maybe, but dickery shall be met with bigger cocks.

I am not sure why everyone assumes I am trolling. Is there some method to determining trolls I am unaware of? Everything I have said so far has been genuine.
Remember, aspergers. Lack of social skills. Atypical use of language. I may send red flags, but these are unintentional, and most likely just because my brain works a little different. At the very least give me enough credit to accept that I believe what I say.

Yes, but when "what you say" is not interpreted as you may have intended, given the aforementioned... Some of what you've said has seemed really ridiculous.

I do appreciate your patience in trying to explain yourself.

(09-09-2014 02:30 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  When responding to arguments, my wording may come across as intellectually superior and maybe condescending, but I do mean well.
As for the "playing nice" I didn't really start it. I only posted a highly speculative comment and got hounded for it. I attempted to explain my position, while also responding to several criticisms of misogyny. Not an easy task. I mean, if this were purely banter, I would let it slide, but considering that most attacks I take as genuine (I give my critics that level of respect), I have no choice but to respond. I may be sarcastic, a bit over the top, or use hyperbole without it being obvious, but when somebody is saying you hate half of the human race and they may actually believe that position, you prefer to set them straight, or what are you going to get, "ooh he hasn't denied it!" and no I won't stand for it. Note how I have tried to derail the vitriol numerous times when I realised it wasn't an isolated thing.

Your bizarre fixation with misattributing fallacies has not exactly aided you.

If you say "maybe OP has a point", people are going to interpret that as you suggesting that the OP has a point.

And since the OP's point is insane, the reaction will not be particularly polite.

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09-09-2014, 02:39 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:30 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  Sorry kid, not buying your act no morez. If you continue to play nice then maybe, but dickery shall be met with bigger cocks.

I am not sure why everyone assumes I am trolling. Is there some method to determining trolls I am unaware of? Everything I have said so far has been genuine.
Remember, aspergers. Lack of social skills. Atypical use of language. I may send red flags, but these are unintentional, and most likely just because my brain works a little different. At the very least give me enough credit to accept that I believe what I say.
When responding to arguments, my wording may come across as intellectually superior and maybe condescending, but I do mean well.
As for the "playing nice" I didn't really start it. I only posted a highly speculative comment and got hounded for it. I attempted to explain my position, while also responding to several criticisms of misogyny. Not an easy task. I mean, if this were purely banter, I would let it slide, but considering that most attacks I take as genuine (I give my critics that level of respect), I have no choice but to respond. I may be sarcastic, a bit over the top, or use hyperbole without it being obvious, but when somebody is saying you hate half of the human race and they may actually believe that position, you prefer to set them straight, or what are you going to get, "ooh he hasn't denied it!" and no I won't stand for it. Note how I have tried to derail the vitriol numerous times when I realised it wasn't an isolated thing.

Already gave you a few detailed reasons why in another thread you claimed to not be... read up on what a troll is first of all because you defending yourself by an aspect of a troll, not all that trolling is.

There's a clear example again in this thread I don't have to look hard to find. Saying something outlandish like, Feminism is a religion, then defending that claim through multiple posts only to then coincided at the tail end of another post trying to defend your claim, oh you aren't THAT serious ... it's not an actual religion. This is a clear sight of trollish behavior. And you behavior on this board gives us, skeptical folks, no reason to think you aren't a troll. It looks like close to something about 75% of your posts on the topic of Feminism... multiple of those posts were you reviving month/week old threads on the topic. You have your thread on William Lane Craig and a few other posts outside this issue, but it's mainly one topic you are posting under, which is something highly indicative of a troll.

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09-09-2014, 02:59 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, but when "what you say" is not interpreted as you may have intended, given the aforementioned... Some of what you've said has seemed really ridiculous.

Fair enough. Sometimes oppositions seem ridiculous, and I have tried to look at what little substance in my responses contains, and sometimes can seem ridiculous to me. I think that is that thing about radicalisation that I said.
Also, I guess the lack of personal interaction can cause less ability to interpret the tone and context of a statement. I guess that is just one limitation of text conversations.

(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I do appreciate your patience in trying to explain yourself.

Thanks. I know we have had... differences... but I hope we can put that behind us. Agreed?

(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Your bizarre fixation with misattributing fallacies has not exactly aided you.

I guess I am a bit trigger happy on the fallacy gun. Maybe it is to do with the fact that my criticisms to arguments are more mechanical, while most people never even think of pointing out a fallacy.
At the moment I have this project in which I am breaking down a huge number of syllogistic arguments for god, and sometimes fallacies will be easier to explain flaws than without them. In conversations it can come across as a bit of a dick move.
As for whether there actually were fallacies, I don't think that argument will be settled, and it doesn't matter. I care very little about past arguments. If someone says "I changed my mind" or "I didn't mean that" I will apologise for the misattribution and respond to the new position instead. If I have failed to do that I apologise.

(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you say "maybe OP has a point", people are going to interpret that as you suggesting that the OP has a point.

Keyword: maybe. Is there a way to be any more speculative than to respond with "maybe" to a statement that contains several "maybes"?
But I understand where you are coming from.

(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And since the OP's point is insane, the reaction will not be particularly polite.

Oh, I know. I wasn't expecting any better. I knew I was going to get flak, and a tonne of it to boot. But I can deal with it. Doesn't mean I have to like being attacked.

Again, my position is speculative, I have given my justification for at least looking into it further, and I have accepted that it could be completely false. We can't just dismiss positions for appearing insane. I would rather hear the argument, critically examine it, and then postulate methods to test such (however I am unsure if this would be ethical to test).
Isn't that what rationalists are supposed to do?

Thank you for this response. I do prefer when we can disagree and still be civil about it.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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09-09-2014, 03:16 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Already gave you a few detailed reasons why in another thread you claimed to not be... read up on what a troll is first of all because you defending yourself by an aspect of a troll, not all that trolling is.

Trolling is generally done purely to get a reaction, right? I am voicing an unpopular opinion.

(09-09-2014 02:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There's a clear example again in this thread I don't have to look hard to find. Saying something outlandish like, Feminism is a religion, then defending that claim through multiple posts only to then coincided at the tail end of another post trying to defend your claim, oh you aren't THAT serious ... it's not an actual religion. This is a clear sight of trollish behavior.

Well that was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek. I was mostly trying to point out a large amount of dogmatic views with abstract methods to protect the ideology in the mind.
It was more of an analogy. And as much as it isn't a religion in the supernatural sense, I meant it in the sense that it is a strong ideology with "moderates" and "radicals" and has a disturbing number of parallels.
But I was responding to an insult, and so it wasn't meant to be 100% literal.

(09-09-2014 02:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And you behavior on this board gives us, skeptical folks, no reason to think you aren't a troll.

Well, I am unsure of what you would look for to prove you aren't a troll. Is this guilty till proven innocent now?

(09-09-2014 02:39 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It looks like close to something about 75% of your posts on the topic of Feminism... multiple of those posts were you reviving month/week old threads on the topic. You have your thread on William Lane Craig and a few other posts outside this issue, but it's mainly one topic you are posting under, which is something highly indicative of a troll.

Okay, the main reason is because I am constantly responding to criticism. Really, I am much more interested in debunking theology and apologists but there isn't much of that on this site. I would actually like to distance myself from feminism as a whole, as I am a moderate who thinks we do have a legitimate level of equality in the sexes, and that gender politics is mostly a non-issue, except in highly specific circumstances.
But I am not going to just stand and let criticism get past me, because they may have a point. They could be right and I might be wrong.
And also, feminism is really the only thing where there is still a reasonable number of intelligent people who can argue coherently on both sides, and so I do kind of like discussing with feminists rather than theists or creationists because they are generally more likely to have something substantive and original rather than the 957th iteration of Pascal's wager.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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09-09-2014, 03:28 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I do appreciate your patience in trying to explain yourself.

Thanks. I know we have had... differences... but I hope we can put that behind us. Agreed?

Of course.

(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Your bizarre fixation with misattributing fallacies has not exactly aided you.

I guess I am a bit trigger happy on the fallacy gun. Maybe it is to do with the fact that my criticisms to arguments are more mechanical, while most people never even think of pointing out a fallacy.

That seems an unfounded and unsubstantiated judgement... just what is "most people" supposed to mean?

But so long as you realize being trigger happy is by definition going to increase your rate of misses and misfires...

(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you say "maybe OP has a point", people are going to interpret that as you suggesting that the OP has a point.

Keyword: maybe. Is there a way to be any more speculative than to respond with "maybe" to a statement that contains several "maybes"?
But I understand where you are coming from.

OP suggested - explicitly - that "feminists" want (and cause) rape, because lol conspiracy.

That is his point. Do you agree with that?

(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  
(09-09-2014 02:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And since the OP's point is insane, the reaction will not be particularly polite.

Oh, I know. I wasn't expecting any better. I knew I was going to get flak, and a tonne of it to boot. But I can deal with it. Doesn't mean I have to like being attacked.

But why would you even frame your statement as you did, unless to be deliberate provocative? It's one thing to say "OP might have a point", but quite another to say that the point he might have is not what his actual post says.

(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  Again, my position is speculative, I have given my justification for at least looking into it further, and I have accepted that it could be completely false. We can't just dismiss positions for appearing insane. I would rather hear the argument, critically examine it, and then postulate methods to test such (however I am unsure if this would be ethical to test).
Isn't that what rationalists are supposed to do?

There's another rationalist saying I'm sure you've heard:
extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

(09-09-2014 02:59 PM)spinosauruskin Wrote:  Thank you for this response. I do prefer when we can disagree and still be civil about it.

Sure.

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09-09-2014, 05:05 PM
RE: Feminism, Rape and Immigration
Okay, it seems I have enough to now dismiss the rape stats being caused by feminists actively increasing rape. I now have no reason to accept that.
Turns out that another speculative explanation I had accounts for it.

"spinosauruskin Wrote:And the way feminists have watered down the definition of rape to "any vaginal sex" for some, or killing female players in multiplayer video games (I'm not kidding) may also be a factor. Obviously, as I always have to say, not all feminists think that. But some do. That is all that is required.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Sweden
And this one has evidence.

Res, it was an interesting idea, but this one turned out to be more benign. Really, I'm glad.

If somebody points out a fallacy, and you call fallacy fallacy, that doesn't mean you are right. That just means you committed the very fallacy you accused your opponent of.
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