Feminism in Gaming
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16-10-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
EK, you've linked those videos before, and I watched them then and there. They are really, really good. Well-worth the watch for anyone who isn't sure if they should bother. You should.
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10-12-2017, 12:10 AM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(11-09-2016 12:58 PM)Vosur Wrote:  That's the problem with third-wave feminists like Anita and EK. The aim of their cause was fulfilled when men and women achieved overall equality in Western societies so they have to invent new feminist issues to stay relevant. Among those non-issues are the wage gap myth, the made-up college campus rape statistics, so-called "manspreading" and female representation in XYZ. Meanwhile women in other countries are still suffering under actual oppressive patriarchies like the Saudi Arabian government. They've really got their priorities straight.

A rebuttal.

There are children starving in Africa, so who are you to be worried about pedophile priests/neo-fascists/Brexit/creationism/etc. You've really got your priorities straight.

Drinking Beverage

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10-12-2017, 01:54 AM
Feminism in Gaming
I love the irony of this thread starting by complaining about people "complaining no matter what" and somehow it didn't seep back into the brain that projected that to only others.

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10-12-2017, 04:05 AM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
Meh. Videogames can be whatever the fuck they want. Any form of censorship or "Do and do nots" hinder creative process. For example, Hatred was a shitty Postal knock-off that was critcally panned. Awesome, we've learned that the game was ass and that if you want a well recived game, don't do whatever Hatred did. Let it exsist, who the fuck cares. It's like 5 dollars on Steam, yo hoo big deal.

Let people create shitty games where some chick had big boobs and wanted nothing but to suck cock. Media doesn't have a responsibilty to teach you morals; that's your parents' job when you're five, and the law's job when you're 18.

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10-12-2017, 04:41 AM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(10-12-2017 04:05 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Meh. Videogames can be whatever the fuck they want. Any form of censorship or "Do and do nots" hinder creative process. For example, Hatred was a shitty Postal knock-off that was critcally panned. Awesome, we've learned that the game was ass and that if you want a well recived game, don't do whatever Hatred did. Let it exsist, who the fuck cares. It's like 5 dollars on Steam, yo hoo big deal.

Let people create shitty games where some chick had big boobs and wanted nothing but to suck cock. Media doesn't have a responsibilty to teach you morals; that's your parents' job when you're five, and the law's job when you're 18.


Sure, but I reserve the right to critique the game and call out bullshit when and where I see it. Because games matter.


Also, Hatred wasn't even a shitty Postal knock-off. Postal, for as juvenile as it was, at east made an attempt at satire. Hatred on the other hand just glorified sadism.




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10-12-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(10-12-2017 04:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 04:05 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Meh. Videogames can be whatever the fuck they want. Any form of censorship or "Do and do nots" hinder creative process. For example, Hatred was a shitty Postal knock-off that was critcally panned. Awesome, we've learned that the game was ass and that if you want a well recived game, don't do whatever Hatred did. Let it exsist, who the fuck cares. It's like 5 dollars on Steam, yo hoo big deal.

Let people create shitty games where some chick had big boobs and wanted nothing but to suck cock. Media doesn't have a responsibilty to teach you morals; that's your parents' job when you're five, and the law's job when you're 18.


Sure, but I reserve the right to critique the game and call out bullshit when and where I see it. Because games matter.

Of course, critique is not the same as censorship.

(10-12-2017 04:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, Hatred wasn't even a shitty Postal knock-off. Postal, for as juvenile as it was, at east made an attempt at satire. Hatred on the other hand just glorified sadism.




I'm talking about Postal 1 where killing civies isn't optional. Top down view, victims crawling on the ground, commenting their death while bleeding out; it's a Postal 1 knock-off with more a graphical update and more executions. I found it boring and edgy.

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11-12-2017, 09:34 AM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(10-12-2017 01:27 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 04:41 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Sure, but I reserve the right to critique the game and call out bullshit when and where I see it. Because games matter.

Of course, critique is not the same as censorship.

Exactly- but some people tend to approach people like Anita Sarkeesian as though she's aiming for censorship- which is false. She critiques games and trends/tropes within games. But people attack her like she's the anti-Christ of censorship.

The goal may be to push the gaming environment toward one that respects and represents women more and better- but that doesn't mean that goal is to be achieved through censorship. It's to get people to think more about their stories, messages, as well as by whom and how those stories and messages are told- and then to ideally generate more content that reaches all gamers rather than just white middle-class teenage boys and young adults.

And it's working. Slowly, yes, but it's still working.
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11-12-2017, 11:48 AM (This post was last modified: 11-12-2017 12:01 PM by ELK12695.)
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(11-12-2017 09:34 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(10-12-2017 01:27 PM)ELK12695 Wrote:  Of course, critique is not the same as censorship.

Exactly- but some people tend to approach people like Anita Sarkeesian as though she's aiming for censorship- which is false. She critiques games and trends/tropes within games. But people attack her like she's the anti-Christ of censorship.

No, people have a bigger problem with her being a complete ass. Misrepresenting Hitman where she implied that killing some female strippers was a mission objective (which of course it wasn't since you're an assassin, not a crazed gunman); nevermind she never actually recorded the footage, she just took someone else's recording without asking. Yeah I know, fair use, but that's kinda fucking douchey.

She implied the only draw to the original Tomb Raider games was TITS AND ASS, which is nonsense since the games are still played a lot today despite Lara's now completely outdated breasts textures, and that would also imply that there is no male attraction whatsoever to the new Lara Croft. Nice job of trying to guess everyone's sexual attractions there, Anita. Look up hetrosexual porn search results. It's more than just tits and asses there.

She implied that Arkham City tried desperately to hide Batman's ass, although you can see it in all it's glorious detail whenever you use the Batclaw. Also, dat alternate costume.

There's the "I play video games, but I forgot how to turn the controller on, that one was rich.

And that's just the videogame part of it... How about the 200 000 dollars thing she did?




Wonder where that money went... This looks like a scam.

Oh yeah, and even all this wasn't really enough to make me dispise her. Untill she insulted Boogie2988 backstage at Vidcon '17 for simply having a different opinon than her... on a massive panel intended for that singular purpose; this is a guy who is known for not wanting to hurt a fly, despite people trying to call a fucking hit on him.

I have no animosity against anyone who agrees with her; in truth, I still like Wil Wheaton after he pleadged his support to her. But she is not the representative anyone should have, for anything. She's terrible at making people understand, tolerate or respect her messages, because she has little tolerance for anyone else, which is essential in any form of diplomacy. She should watch a documentary on MLK or something.

(11-12-2017 09:34 AM)Emma Wrote:  The goal may be to push the gaming environment toward one that respects and represents women more and better- but that doesn't mean that goal is to be achieved through censorship. It's to get people to think more about their stories, messages, as well as by whom and how those stories and messages are told- and then to ideally generate more content that reaches all gamers rather than just white middle-class teenage boys and young adults.

And it's working. Slowly, yes, but it's still working.

I buy games that I like. I didn't buy no Battlefront 2, because I don't like PVP, and the pay to play elements would ruin it if I did like it. I might buy Shadow of War, if I can find a workaround to any Dark Souls bullshit where others intrude in your game. I didn't buy Sims 4, because fuck, I can't afford it. That's how everyone else also thinks; they buy the games if they like what they see. Most developers and publishers follow the money. I honestly don't give a fuck if the main character is male or female, gay or hetro. I don't have time to give a shit about it.

Also, I don't see any issue with a lot of white men playing video games. African Americans might have a hard time with lots of stuff in the states, but pretty much anyone can afford a videogame. If some people with black skin doesn't buy a game, then I guess a publisher just sucks at communicating with this perticular target group. What a shame, I guess another game will connect with that culture and get rich. Seriously, I have never met a black man at my age that doesn't play videogames. As for women, I've met plently of them who play games, and if they're not vocal about it, then it certianly isn't my fault or my responsiblity to make them do so. Do what you want, I won't stop you. Just leave me alone with my shitty games.




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11-12-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(11-12-2017 11:48 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 09:34 AM)Emma Wrote:  Exactly- but some people tend to approach people like Anita Sarkeesian as though she's aiming for censorship- which is false. She critiques games and trends/tropes within games. But people attack her like she's the anti-Christ of censorship.

No, people have a bigger problem with her being a complete ass. Misrepresenting Hitman where she implied that killing some female strippers was a mission objective (which of course it wasn't since you're an assassin, not a crazed gunman); nevermind she never actually recorded the footage, she just took someone else's recording without asking. Yeah I know, fair use, but that's kinda fucking douchey.

She implied the only draw to the original Tomb Raider games was TITS AND ASS, which is nonsense since the games are still played a lot today despite Lara's now completely outdated breasts, and that would also imply that there is no male attraction whatsoever to the new Lara Croft. Nice job of trying to guess everyone's sexual attractions there, Anita. Look hetrosexual porn search results. It's more than just tits and asses there.

She implied that Arkham City tried desperately to hide Batman's ass, although you can see it in all it's glorious detail whenever you use the Batclaw. Also, dat alternate costume.

There's the "I play video games, but I forgot how to turn the controller on, that one was rich.

And that's just the videogame part of it... How about the 200 000 dollars thing she did?




Wonder where that money went... This looks like a scam.

Oh yeah, and even all this wasn't really enough to make me dispise her. Untill she insulted Boogie2988 backstage at Vidcon '17 for simply having a different opinon than her... on a massive panel intended for that singular purpose; this is a guy who is known for not wanting to hurt a fly, despite people trying to call a fucking hit on him.

I have no animosity against anyone who agrees with her; in truth, I still like Wil Wheaton after he pleadged his support to her. But she is not the representative anyone should have, for anything. She's terrible at making people understand, tolerate or respect her messages, because she has little tolerance for anyone else, which is essential in any form of diplomacy. She should watch a documentary on MLK or something.

We can counter each other all day with videos about how Anita is or is not fraudulent, or a sham, or terrible, or whatever. I like her, you don't. The way I see it, you've bought the bullshit lines about what she's said or did, and the way you might see it I'm either ignorant of what she "did" or uncaring. It's bullshit, imo.

However, it's not her job to be a diplomat. She fulfilled her objective and more when her GoFundMe project goal was met and she had extra budget. And her videos are good communications of pretty basic ideas.

(11-12-2017 11:48 AM)ELK12695 Wrote:  
(11-12-2017 09:34 AM)Emma Wrote:  The goal may be to push the gaming environment toward one that respects and represents women more and better- but that doesn't mean that goal is to be achieved through censorship. It's to get people to think more about their stories, messages, as well as by whom and how those stories and messages are told- and then to ideally generate more content that reaches all gamers rather than just white middle-class teenage boys and young adults.

And it's working. Slowly, yes, but it's still working.

I buy games that I like. I didn't buy no Battlefront 2, because I don't like PVP, and the pay to play elements would ruin it if I did like it. I might buy Shadow of War, if I can find a workaround to any Dark Souls bullshit where others intrude in your game. I didn't buy Sims 4, because fuck, I can't afford it. That's how everyone else also thinks; they buy the games if they like what they see. Most developers and publishers follow the money. I honestly don't give a fuck if the main character is male or female, gay or hetro. I don't have time to give a shit about it.

Also, I don't see any issue with a lot of white men playing video games. African Americans might have a hard time with lots of stuff in the states, but pretty much anyone can afford a videogame. If some people with black skin doesn't buy a game, then I guess a publisher just sucks at communicating with this perticular target group. What a shame, I guess another game will connect with that culture and get rich. Seriously, I have never met a black man at my age that doesn't play videogames. As for women, I've met plently of them who play games, and if they're not vocal about it, then it certianly isn't my fault or my responsiblity to make them do so. Do what you want, I won't stop you. Just leave me alone with my shitty games.




You are lucky that you get to and have traditionally always had access to video games where you are represented in a positive or heroic light. So much so that you get are able to be blasè about it. It doesn't mean much to you, personally, but it does mean a lot to a lot of other people. Some who never get to see themselves or someone like them represented on screen or others who ONLY want to see straight white dudes as main characters (and there are some quite vocal people out there with that position). Lucky you. Thumbsup

And, I truly don't hold any animosity toward you for being in that position. I really mean that it's great! I want to see more people of more groups happy to be in that position.

And no one is telling you not to like the games you play. Certainly not Anita. We all like media that is problematic. The point of criticism is to push society toward a goal- and in her case, that goal is toward better representation of women and other minority groups.

I don't at all have a problem with white guys playing video games. That was absolutely not my point. My point was that that's who video games have been marketing to for quite some time- and them almost exclusively. My point also (which agrees with what you said) was that there are many other demographics that play video games, and game publishers can (and now are) make even more dough by marketing to and representing other groups in their games.

Take Overwatch, for example. I play tons of OW, and I meet lots of women in that game. There are lots of women who play many games of course, but in this game, I meet a lot of women who are unafraid to openly "be" women. It feels much more like an MMO environment than a shooter environment to me. But, that's just my anecdotal assessment of the game.

Anyway- it's not the point to shame you about which games you like. The point is that game publishers can and perhaps should (if they really want to make the most money they can) aim their marketing sights on more than just white guys. And that in order to do so, they need to really better consider their representation of other groups of people- especially women.
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11-12-2017, 12:51 PM
RE: Feminism in Gaming
(08-09-2016 02:41 PM)Leerob Wrote:  There is Annie, a little child with a teddy bear, who kills you with fire.
There is Rek'Sai, an ugly, purple monster that sneaks around everywhere.
There is Caitlyn, a hot, long legged bitch, who keeps taunting everybody.
There is Evelyn, a spider woman, who who can spawn more spiders to help her.
There is Leona, a tank in full body armour, where you see no body at all really.

Elise is the spider mom and Evelyn is hot goth mom, ya got em mixed up. Also why you gotta hurt Reksai like that Sad

I agree with your perspective though. I feel her videos are very closeminded and she seems really uninformed. Most often even when the "damsel in distress" trope is present, the female role still plays a severely important role to the plot, or to some sort of plot and character development. So it isn't that women in video games are underwhelming or watered down. You still have strong female roles, and even when they aren't strong, they're still usually immensely important to how the game unfolds.

Kairi from Kingdom Hearts starts out very minor and debuts as a damsel in distress, but she becomes very important to plot development and character development surrounding both Sora and Riku. She is still important, and she has positive traits that are admirable and vital to the story.
Aqua is also, very clearly, a "damsel in distress" (although not really) as she has been trapped in darkness for ten years and relies on Riku and Mickey to save her from the depths. She is still a strong character with admirable personality traits and visible development in her physical and emotional strength.
Aerith from Final Fantasy is arguably poorly developed, and although her fate couldn't be helped and was executed pretty shitty, her death and connection to Cloud really kick off the plot and conflict development.
Danganronpa is filled with so many creatively and incredibly developed female figures. Junko Enoshima was a girl that was engulfed by despair and was intellectual enough to cause the entire world to enter chaos. One amazing female character, 4 games, 3 anime series, 3 short stories, 3 light novels, a manga, and one OVA later and she is probably one of the most creative villains in any video game that I definitely favorite over most others. She is basically the "Damsel in Despair" instead of distress, and although she isn't a good example for a damsel in distress, she's still a damn good female role.
From league of legends, Miss Fortune wasn't always the strongest pirate and she was raised through hell, but now she pretty much ridicules and overthrows any other pirate captain that crosses her path. Sivir grew up on the streets after her entire family was murdered in front of her, but she learns how to survive and defend herself on the literal streets.

Just because a female role may be initially portrayed as a damsel in distress, or even if they are minor in the beginning or killed off fast, that doesn't mean that trope or initial impression of the character is the extent of their character development. They normally develop into a stronger character, OR they help develop other character and plot aspects elsewhere in the story anyways.

Also, with the argument about the aesthetics of females roles (females being too busty, but if they're not hot they're not important):

Zarya, Moira, Orisa and Ana from Overwatch. Incredible character development and great backgrounds. Strong female characters with awesome traits.

From league: Illaoi, Reksai, Anivia, Casseopiea, Kalista, Kindred. Not all of the female champions have universal aesthetic appeal, or any kind of appeal whatsoever. Annie and Zoe are children (Riot can shove Zoe's divine bullshit where the sun don't shine because she's a child, not some 1000 year old god. She's a KID), Morgana is an undead angel or something, and Sejuani is a big hefty mom that rides a giant BOAR.

In Danganronpa 1, Sakura and Toko are not the most aesthetically pleasing, but Sakura plays the role of a huge mid game plot twist, and Toko got an entire game for herself.

There are plenty of games with strong and important female roles where the females aren't necessarily hot. I've just named a lot of mobas cause that's all I play besides rpgs and visual novels.
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