Feminism's many branches
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14-08-2015, 09:16 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2015 10:39 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Feminism's many branches
I consider myself a staunch feminist, in the sense that I fight/advocate for absolute equality of opportunity and treatment of the sexes (which may include "extra" rights in one or more areas, like laws that force companies to pay for or allow leave when a woman has a baby, and prohibiting that company from firing women for getting/being pregnant, areas which are still woefully inadequate, as the articles show). I am also glad to see the slowly-growing side-effect of better legal rights/social conditions for men in the field of parenting (e.g. diaper changing stations in mens' rooms, and people not looking down on men who stay home to raise the kid while the wife works, etc). We still have a long way to go, and feminists are on the front lines of many of these battles. In that sense, and in the sense that it blows me away that in the 21st century we're still having to have conversations about whether women "deserve" the full benefits of equality and freedom from discrimination that men have long enjoyed, I am a hardline feminist, and proud to wear the title.

That said (one of my favorite expressions), I agree that in many ways, there are activists in Third Wave feminism who "give the movement a bad name" by seeming to promote what I call "Mad Men for Women"-style feminism, under the idea that because men engaged in such misogynistic ways for so long, that the solution is misandry in return.

Intersectional feminism is the best of the fields, I think, because it seems pretty clear from the data that the issues of class, poverty, racism, transphobia, etc, all affect the women in those categories more than the men in the same categories, and it is a worthy field of study/discussion to bring those issues into the feminist literature-- if nothing else, we need a better grasp of why this is so, in order to repair that gap (employment/pay gaps and child-raising of course have much to do with it).

Normally, I would agree with the statement that one need not wear the label to be one, but I think the same principle applies as being "out of the closet" as an atheist: as long as we are ashamed to wear the label, those who control the social majority positions can more or less safely ignore and/or mistreat us with much less ramification. "What do you mean, you're a [ feminist / atheist ]?!?" is a moment of empowerment, forcing that "normal" person (in their mind) to cope with the knowledge that the "perfectly normal" person they've known (YOU!) is actually a member of a group they likely had many wrong ideas about, and whom they have been told it's okay to disdain. It also gives a chance at conversation which may help them to realize that, despite all they've been fed by Culture, they are in fact closer to our position than they realize, once they actually must consider it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-08-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 09:16 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That said (one of my favorite expressions), I agree that in many ways, there are activists in Third Wave feminism who "give the movement a bad name" by seeming to promote what I call "Mad Men for Women"-style feminism, under the idea that because men engaged in such misogynistic ways for so long, that the solution is misanthropy in return (I think we need a better term, since misanthropy applies to all humans, and in this case I mean anti-male positions).

Misandry is the etymological equivalent of misogyny.

Of course, for every literal, genuine female chauvinist I've ever seen - even online - I've seen dozens more raving about what a big problem they are. So there's that.

(but now I'm just thinking about etymology - did you know that perhaps 5% or more of English vocabulary is eponymous? Including chauvinism?)

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14-08-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
There's as many types of feminism as there are females.

More, actually - considering there's men who also consider themselves feminists.

..

vive la difference

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14-08-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
Thanks, CJLR. Smile

Went back and edited it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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14-08-2015, 10:55 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 12:29 AM)PrettyGirlRock Wrote:  *I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this question, so if it isn't, hopefully it gets moved*
So, I have repeatedly asked this specific questions to other feminists and they have either gone around the question or they give me a really crappy, half-hearted, lazy answer. I notice that atheists have a really weird relationship with feminism, they either embrace it fully and are feminists (i.e., atheist feminism) or they really hate it and tend to be anti-feminist. Excluding myself, I have yet to find an atheist who is in-between and doesn't really know (Today I realized I have a love-hate relationship with feminism...). But anyway, I was wondering if people could actually give me a solid answer to this question I have because it's kind of bugging me.

There are many types of feminism. There is feminism that focuses only on misogyny and women's rights, then there is intersectional feminism which focuses on race, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, class, ability and other factors as well as sex because those kinds of feminists believe that those factors and any discrimination people face intersect. There is feminism that wants to help trans* people, then there is feminism where you believe that trans* people especially transgender women are oppressing women and appropriating womanhood. There is liberal feminism and then there's radical feminism. There's religious feminism, then there's atheist feminism. There are many types of feminism and a lot of them clash and contradict each other. It reminds me of the many branches of Christianity, like Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestanism, Calvinism, etc. They all clash and contradict each other, especially when it comes to who gets to go to heaven and how. I think that Christianity loses credibility when its many branches, that are all for the same thing, don't even agree with each other. It's the exact same thing for feminism, if all these feminists say they want equality and for oppression and discrimination to stop, but they all believe and fight for different things...it's hard to know who to listen to. And they think that they are right, like all Christians. That doesn't make things easier.

Is there a way to combat all those different types of feminism? Does it matter that there are so many and that a lot of them conflict? Is it all just really messy and hard to follow? What's your opinion on this, I'm really hoping someone can give me an answer or idea that actually holds water.

I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

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14-08-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 12:29 AM)PrettyGirlRock Wrote:  *I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this question, so if it isn't, hopefully it gets moved*
So, I have repeatedly asked this specific questions to other feminists and they have either gone around the question or they give me a really crappy, half-hearted, lazy answer. I notice that atheists have a really weird relationship with feminism, they either embrace it fully and are feminists (i.e., atheist feminism) or they really hate it and tend to be anti-feminist. Excluding myself, I have yet to find an atheist who is in-between and doesn't really know (Today I realized I have a love-hate relationship with feminism...). But anyway, I was wondering if people could actually give me a solid answer to this question I have because it's kind of bugging me.

There are many types of feminism. There is feminism that focuses only on misogyny and women's rights, then there is intersectional feminism which focuses on race, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, class, ability and other factors as well as sex because those kinds of feminists believe that those factors and any discrimination people face intersect. There is feminism that wants to help trans* people, then there is feminism where you believe that trans* people especially transgender women are oppressing women and appropriating womanhood. There is liberal feminism and then there's radical feminism. There's religious feminism, then there's atheist feminism. There are many types of feminism and a lot of them clash and contradict each other. It reminds me of the many branches of Christianity, like Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestanism, Calvinism, etc. They all clash and contradict each other, especially when it comes to who gets to go to heaven and how. I think that Christianity loses credibility when its many branches, that are all for the same thing, don't even agree with each other. It's the exact same thing for feminism, if all these feminists say they want equality and for oppression and discrimination to stop, but they all believe and fight for different things...it's hard to know who to listen to. And they think that they are right, like all Christians. That doesn't make things easier.

Is there a way to combat all those different types of feminism? Does it matter that there are so many and that a lot of them conflict? Is it all just really messy and hard to follow? What's your opinion on this, I'm really hoping someone can give me an answer or idea that actually holds water.

I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

You clearly live in a very different world from anyone else in this thread.

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14-08-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 12:29 AM)PrettyGirlRock Wrote:  *I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this question, so if it isn't, hopefully it gets moved*
So, I have repeatedly asked this specific questions to other feminists and they have either gone around the question or they give me a really crappy, half-hearted, lazy answer. I notice that atheists have a really weird relationship with feminism, they either embrace it fully and are feminists (i.e., atheist feminism) or they really hate it and tend to be anti-feminist. Excluding myself, I have yet to find an atheist who is in-between and doesn't really know (Today I realized I have a love-hate relationship with feminism...). But anyway, I was wondering if people could actually give me a solid answer to this question I have because it's kind of bugging me.

There are many types of feminism. There is feminism that focuses only on misogyny and women's rights, then there is intersectional feminism which focuses on race, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, class, ability and other factors as well as sex because those kinds of feminists believe that those factors and any discrimination people face intersect. There is feminism that wants to help trans* people, then there is feminism where you believe that trans* people especially transgender women are oppressing women and appropriating womanhood. There is liberal feminism and then there's radical feminism. There's religious feminism, then there's atheist feminism. There are many types of feminism and a lot of them clash and contradict each other. It reminds me of the many branches of Christianity, like Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestanism, Calvinism, etc. They all clash and contradict each other, especially when it comes to who gets to go to heaven and how. I think that Christianity loses credibility when its many branches, that are all for the same thing, don't even agree with each other. It's the exact same thing for feminism, if all these feminists say they want equality and for oppression and discrimination to stop, but they all believe and fight for different things...it's hard to know who to listen to. And they think that they are right, like all Christians. That doesn't make things easier.

Is there a way to combat all those different types of feminism? Does it matter that there are so many and that a lot of them conflict? Is it all just really messy and hard to follow? What's your opinion on this, I'm really hoping someone can give me an answer or idea that actually holds water.

I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.
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14-08-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 11:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.

To be fair, privilege is a very difficult concept for people to understand, sometimes. It does not refer to individuals. It refers to differences in treatment in aggregate, as statistical phenomena.
(and it directly contradicts our naive and pervasive just world assumptions, to boot)

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14-08-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 11:12 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 11:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.

To be fair, privilege is a very difficult concept for people to understand, sometimes. It does not refer to individuals. It refers to differences in treatment in aggregate, as statistical phenomena.
(and it directly contradicts our naive and pervasive just world assumptions, to boot)

Agreed. I can't speak for SM--he could have used the term "privilege" either way. But it seemed by his post that he was referring to it via the latter since he utilized the term "male privilege."
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14-08-2015, 11:28 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2015 03:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 09:28 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Misandry is the etymological equivalent of misogyny.

But what is the entomological equivalent of feminism?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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