Feminism's many branches
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14-08-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
I am a feminist of the trans-feminist school. I basically believe that gender (as opposed to sexual phenotype) is a largely social construct that needs to disappear much like racism or slavery. I consider it as one of the greatest mistake in human history that has robbed us, and still rob us, from the talents of thousands of women, but also men in various fields. I see the various branching of feminism as a sign of health for that movement. Sexism is a huge issue ingrained in our society (and many others) for so long it has gained an almost «natural» status. There is no easy fix or singular way to solve this issue hence why there is so many approaches. Some with Marxist-Leninist roots will advocate for a matriarchal system that would impose women rule on the society until its ready for equality which is analogous to the dictatorship of the proletariat which was meant to be temporary (we all know how this turned out). On the opposite side of the Spectrum, some feminist hold to traditional gender role, but think that women gender roles needs to be exalted just as much as those of men so that they achieve equality. While I think both of these examples have a wrong and limited approach to the issue, we both share the same ultimate goal. The label is the same for the goal is the same, but it's in the method that it differs.
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14-08-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 12:29 AM)PrettyGirlRock Wrote:  *I'm not sure if this is the best forum for this question, so if it isn't, hopefully it gets moved*
So, I have repeatedly asked this specific questions to other feminists and they have either gone around the question or they give me a really crappy, half-hearted, lazy answer. I notice that atheists have a really weird relationship with feminism, they either embrace it fully and are feminists (i.e., atheist feminism) or they really hate it and tend to be anti-feminist. Excluding myself, I have yet to find an atheist who is in-between and doesn't really know (Today I realized I have a love-hate relationship with feminism...). But anyway, I was wondering if people could actually give me a solid answer to this question I have because it's kind of bugging me.

There are many types of feminism. There is feminism that focuses only on misogyny and women's rights, then there is intersectional feminism which focuses on race, sexual orientation, gender identity/expression, class, ability and other factors as well as sex because those kinds of feminists believe that those factors and any discrimination people face intersect. There is feminism that wants to help trans* people, then there is feminism where you believe that trans* people especially transgender women are oppressing women and appropriating womanhood. There is liberal feminism and then there's radical feminism. There's religious feminism, then there's atheist feminism. There are many types of feminism and a lot of them clash and contradict each other. It reminds me of the many branches of Christianity, like Catholicism, Mormonism, Protestanism, Calvinism, etc. They all clash and contradict each other, especially when it comes to who gets to go to heaven and how. I think that Christianity loses credibility when its many branches, that are all for the same thing, don't even agree with each other. It's the exact same thing for feminism, if all these feminists say they want equality and for oppression and discrimination to stop, but they all believe and fight for different things...it's hard to know who to listen to. And they think that they are right, like all Christians. That doesn't make things easier.

Is there a way to combat all those different types of feminism? Does it matter that there are so many and that a lot of them conflict? Is it all just really messy and hard to follow? What's your opinion on this, I'm really hoping someone can give me an answer or idea that actually holds water.

I am more like one of the old suffragettes or the feminists of the 70s. Today, it's probably better to use the word "gender equality".

I adamantly defend equal rights for women, and we are still not quite there. But we have come a looooong way just in my life time.

Mostly we still have equal pay for equal work to deal with, as well as the indoctrination of children regarding the male and female roles.

Sexist indoctrination is still practiced all the time, and is just as heavy as religious indoctrination. It's got to go.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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14-08-2015, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2015 01:39 PM by Gilgamesh.)
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

Couldn't have said it better, myself.

(14-08-2015 11:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.

And this is exactly what slowminded is talking about.

Some feminists will look at the paygap, which is objectively there, and ascribe factors that no study can verifiably ascribe. And by factors, I really mean only one: discrimination, or sexism.

The article you linked doesn't even touch on discrimination. Actually, it only conjectures, at the very end, that "And some part of the pay gap may also be due to gender discrimination."

When you (speaking generally from here; no longer specifically to jenn) say all women should make the same as all men, you are saying that for every job a single person holds, there should be some sort of legislation that dictates at least one member of the opposite sex also holds that same job: That despite qualifications, there needs to be a 1:1 ratio for all jobs, and they have to all be paid the same, despite work productivity. This is not a false equivalence; this is literally what you are saying if you're saying the pay between genders should be 1:1.

I judge people not by how they define themselves, but by their actions. This is why I do not identify as a feminist, and yet am for equal rights.
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14-08-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 01:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 11:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.

And this is exactly what slowminded is talking about.

The fact that there are real, verifiable, quantifiable differences between the way men and women are treated is exactly what slowminded was talking about when he said such complaints were delusional?

Uh...

(14-08-2015 01:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  Some feminists will look at the paygap, which is objectively there, and ascribe factors that no study can verifiably ascribe. And by factors, I really mean only one: discrimination, or sexism.

The article you linked doesn't even touch on discrimination. Actually, it only conjectures, at the very end, that "And some part of the pay gap may also be due to gender discrimination."

You know that if you straight up ask people, "are you a racist? Y/N" they pretty much all say 'No', right? And yet somehow racial bias still exists.
(how this example might be relevant, I leave as an exercise to the reader)

If the other mentioned factors - and you'd have to be pretty obstinate to say that the two most commonly cited factors, those being differences in childcare and vocation, aren't linked to traditional gender roles - don't account for a difference which, all else being equal, wouldn't exist, then... what? It's a coincidence?

(14-08-2015 01:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  When you say all women should make the same as all men, you are saying that for every job a single person holds, there should be some sort of legislation that dictates at least one member of the opposite sex also holds that same job: That despite qualifications, there needs to be a 1:1 ratio for all jobs, and they have to all be paid the same, despite work productivity. This is not a false equivalence; this is literally what you are saying if you're saying the pay between genders should be 1:1.

Yeah. Precisely nobody is saying that.

Come the fuck on.

(14-08-2015 01:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  I judge people not by how they define themselves, but by their actions. This is why I do not identify as a feminist, and yet am for equal rights.

Telling people their problems don't exist and badmouthing their advocacy groups seems like an odd way of supporting their equality.

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14-08-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 01:30 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

Couldn't have said it better, myself.

(14-08-2015 11:03 AM)jennybee Wrote:  Delusional feminists?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...r-pay-gap/

The pay gap is getting better but it is still there.

And this is exactly what slowminded is talking about.

Some feminists will look at the paygap, which is objectively there, and ascribe factors that no study can verifiably ascribe. And by factors, I really mean only one: discrimination, or sexism.

The article you linked doesn't even touch on discrimination. Actually, it only conjectures, at the very end, that "And some part of the pay gap may also be due to gender discrimination."

When you (speaking generally from here; no longer specifically to jenn) say all women should make the same as all men, you are saying that for every job a single person holds, there should be some sort of legislation that dictates at least one member of the opposite sex also holds that same job: That despite qualifications, there needs to be a 1:1 ratio for all jobs, and they have to all be paid the same, despite work productivity. This is not a false equivalence; this is literally what you are saying if you're saying the pay between genders should be 1:1.

I judge people not by how they define themselves, but by their actions. This is why I do not identify as a feminist, and yet am for equal rights.

I was talking about this from the article:

"According to the White House, full-time working women earn 77% of what their male counterparts earn. This means that women have to work approximately 60 extra days, or about three months, to earn what men did by the end of the previous year. However, our own estimate, which is based on hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers, finds women earn 84 percent of what men earn. Based on our estimate, it would take approximately 40 days, or until the end of February, for women to earn what men had by the end of last year."

Clearly, it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job and with the same qualifications. There are many reasons for the pay gap--discrimination is one of them.
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14-08-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
@Jennybee and CJLR

You also forgot another detail. Some jobs that are occupied mostly by women are less paid than job mostly occupied by men despite the fact they require the same level of education and a similar level of time investment. The best example would be the job of social worker in my country which requires at least three years of university to complete the basic formation while engineers with the exact same level of education earn about 20% higher salary. Desk clerks earn almost twice less than shop workers and before somebody brings up the risk factor, there is more desk clerk suffering from injuries (usually related to bad posture and constant use of a computer) than shop workers (who do tend to have more severe ones of course). Police officers earns more than nurses, even if nurses are exposed to more dangers. Recently, nurses gained huge victory to have better salary and the situation has finally been corrected. In resume, there is also a structural problem behind the pay gap that is a remnant of a more sexist era of our society and it still lingers. Fundamentally, one can also question the reasoning and causes behind those salary and the problem they generate.

The pay gap is also affected by pregnancy. Women face a lot of false choice surrounding that issue. The fact that maternity/paternity leave are more generous to women than men in many country in addition to an important exposition to gender stereotypes push couple to make the classical decision of mom at home and dad at work. The opposite is just has viable and healthy for children and parents. In world without such important bias forcing a decision in one way or another, this decision would be much more split. Our culture in regard to gender may not seem to have powerful impact on men and women choices and circumstances, but it's mostly because we have learned not to see it by habit. These things all affect the position of women and men in our society. In an society free of gender roles, the numbers on any given job should over around 50/50 pretty much naturally, maybe for some you will see a 40/60 from time to time, but in general there should not be much difference since men and women share the same ability to learn various skills and the will to use them professionally.
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14-08-2015, 03:07 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 02:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I was talking about this from the article:

"According to the White House, full-time working women earn 77% of what their male counterparts earn. This means that women have to work approximately 60 extra days, or about three months, to earn what men did by the end of the previous year. However, our own estimate, which is based on hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers, finds women earn 84 percent of what men earn. Based on our estimate, it would take approximately 40 days, or until the end of February, for women to earn what men had by the end of last year."

Clearly, it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job and with the same qualifications. There are many reasons for the pay gap--discrimination is one of them.

You are ascribing factors without reason.

Firstly, "it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job."
What you quoted does not illustrate this narrative at all. Women in general earn less than men do, yes, but for doing the same job; well, if you want to get that narrative, you'll have to link a difference article - the one you linked does not say this. It simply said all working men in america make more than all working women in america.

Secondly, "There are many reasons for the pay gap--discrimination is one of them."
It might be, but I've never looked at a study that could objectively say this. It'd be impossible. Nobody can know if ones actions owe its cause to sexism, unless they explicitly say so.
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14-08-2015, 03:16 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
Thank you everyone Smile I appreciate your answers. They are more honest, and solid that most other opinions I have gotten.
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14-08-2015, 03:24 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 03:07 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 02:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I was talking about this from the article:

"According to the White House, full-time working women earn 77% of what their male counterparts earn. This means that women have to work approximately 60 extra days, or about three months, to earn what men did by the end of the previous year. However, our own estimate, which is based on hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers, finds women earn 84 percent of what men earn. Based on our estimate, it would take approximately 40 days, or until the end of February, for women to earn what men had by the end of last year."

Clearly, it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job and with the same qualifications. There are many reasons for the pay gap--discrimination is one of them.

You are ascribing factors without reason.

Firstly, "it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job."
What you quoted does not illustrate this narrative at all. Women in general earn less than men do, yes, but for doing the same job; well, if you want to get that narrative, you'll have to link a difference article - the one you linked does not say this. It simply said all working men in america make more than all working women in america.

Secondly, "There are many reasons for the pay gap--discrimination is one of them."
It might be, but I've never looked at a study that could objectively say this. It'd be impossible. Nobody can know if ones actions owe its cause to sexism, unless they explicitly say so.

What I quoted does illustrate that women earn less than men for the same job. Read the quote from the article I posted again:

"According to the White House, full-time working women earn 77% of what their male counterparts earn. This means that women have to work approximately 60 extra days, or about three months, to earn what men did by the end of the previous year. However, our own estimate, which is based on hourly earnings of both full- and part-time workers, finds women earn 84 percent of what men earn. Based on our estimate, it would take approximately 40 days, or until the end of February, for women to earn what men had by the end of last year."

Counterpart: (n) someone or something that has the same job or purpose as another.
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14-08-2015, 03:25 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 02:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Clearly, it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job and with the same qualifications.

Actually, it is. Mostly.

The "seventy-seven cents to the dollar" statistic that is so commonly thrown around is the result of some rather disingenuous manipulation of the actual statistics. Women working the same jobs as men receive equal pay.

The statistic that results in the seventy-seven cents sound bite is an extremely simplistic calculation done by the Census Bureau: comparing the median earnings of both men and women across the board, without regard for what jobs they are actually working. The total median earnings of all women are seventy-eight percent the total median earnings of all men, regardless of differing careers and so on.

The reasons for women having a lower median wage are many and varied, but research has shown that they are almost universally the cause of different lifestyle choices and career fields. Actual discrimination doesn't enter the equation, though there are feminists who have made the argument that societal pressures are keeping women in lower-paying fields (as nine of the ten lowest-expected-pay majors in college, such as early childhood education and social work, are almost entirely dominated by women).

When comparing the wages of men and women working in the same field and with similar qualifications, there is still some gap, though it's much smaller than one might expect (five cents on the dollar, on average) and varies widely on a case-by-case basis. There is a case to be made that discrimination may be behind this, but so far as I am aware, there simply hasn't been enough actual research done to draw a conclusion either way.

The Washington Post did an excellent article on the subject that you may be interested in. It cites the statistics directly, and is extremely informative.

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