Feminism's many branches
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14-08-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
I jumped onto my computer so I can see all your conservations better Smile

I see you're all talking about the wage gap, and you're all making nice points. Thank you for "arguing" in a civilized manner, I do appreciate that.

The thing that I would like to see feminists talk about that they don't (this is usually a conservation that egalitarians and MRAs have) is the high male suicide rate. Now, when you actually look into suicidology statistics, you will see that women attempt suicide more but men end up succeeding because they use more fatal methods. For example, a woman would typically go for overdosing, while a man would try to hang or shoot himself. I'm interested in why there are different methods for the different sexes, but that doesn't really change the fact that men are killing themselves at a higher rate and that needs to be addressed and changed.
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14-08-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 03:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 02:05 PM)jennybee Wrote:  Clearly, it is not delusion that women earn less than men for doing the same job and with the same qualifications.

Actually, it is. Mostly.

The "seventy-seven cents to the dollar" statistic that is so commonly thrown around is the result of some rather disingenuous manipulation of the actual statistics. Women working the same jobs as men receive equal pay.

The statistic that results in the seventy-seven cents sound bite is an extremely simplistic calculation done by the Census Bureau: comparing the median earnings of both men and women across the board, without regard for what jobs they are actually working. The total median earnings of all women are seventy-eight percent the total median earnings of all men, regardless of differing careers and so on.

The reasons for women having a lower median wage are many and varied, but research has shown that they are almost universally the cause of different lifestyle choices and career fields. Actual discrimination doesn't enter the equation, though there are feminists who have made the argument that societal pressures are keeping women in lower-paying fields (as nine of the ten lowest-expected-pay majors in college, such as early childhood education and social work, are almost entirely dominated by women).

When comparing the wages of men and women working in the same field and with similar qualifications, there is still some gap, though it's much smaller than one might expect (five cents on the dollar, on average) and varies widely on a case-by-case basis. There is a case to be made that discrimination may be behind this, but so far as I am aware, there simply hasn't been enough actual research done to draw a conclusion either way.

The Washington Post did an excellent article on the subject that you may be interested in. It cites the statistics directly, and is extremely informative.

You are right, discrimination is not the only potential reason for the pay gap. I also said that in one of my posts. I also would agree that the 78 cents is a bit of a broad brush. However, there is a disparity in pay between men and women for doing the same exact job. From CNN Money:

Male teachers earn a median of $1096 per week, while women earn $956

Retail sales, women earn 70 cents to the dollar.

Full-time lawyers, women earn 83 cents to the dollar.

Those are just a few examples.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/13/news/eco...-day-2015/

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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14-08-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 10:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 10:55 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  I am in the "fucking hate it" group and yet I am for equal rights with all my hart and soul.
But feminism has nothing to do with equality and I don't care what definition or dictionary says. I only care about what people do and how they act. Feminism today is about grabbing privileges but refusing any responsibility and accountability that comes with rights and privileges, it is based on false premises , myths and plain lying. Misandry ,open or covert , is part of the deal.

For me feminists come in several flavors:

-Naive, uninformed people who believe that feminism is about equality so they support it and are more or less ready to call themselves feminist. Most of them go disillusioned very fast if they dig any deeper into the matter.

-Feminazis, open misadry feminists ,"let's castrate/kill all men" type.

-Delusional feminists, who blame their incompetence, inadequacy or misfortune on patriarchy, male privilege and such.

-Professional victims , not really feminists at all, they just milk it for their own benefit.

You clearly live in a very different world from anyone else in this thread.

Blah, blah , blah....

Women DO EARN less money then man in total, that is not even disputed. BUT, there is a very big and significant BUT ( read the next few sentences very carefully and several times if needed....

It doesn't take into account jobs they do. They just take all the working men and all the working women and yes, men make more money.
Because they choose higher payed jobs, work more hours...Not because they are payed more for the same job.
Male surgeon is payed the same as the female surgeon.
Actually, I have read the study by a serious organization, something like Stamford university or such (I have the link and I believe I posted it the feminism thread a while back , but I am not at my computer now) that in US women are payed 10-15 % more then man by the hour in certain fields.

Nowhere in the link you posted or in any regarding that matter this significant factor is taken into account, even tho in the bottom line that is all that matters.

Just think about it for a second. Would any employer ever pay somebody a dollar if they can get somebody to do the same job for 80c? If that claim was true, no man would ever get a job until there was no women left that wanted that job.

This classical feminist claim is debunked a million times over , you only have to do a simple google or youtube search.

Like I said, myths, disinformation and just plane ol lying.

On the other hand I can give you , and I did if you remember, a hundred and one well documented and undisputed example where women are privileged in western societies. From health care, education, family laws, penal law , pension, lower job requirements etc etc.

Never saw a feminist address any of those issues yet they claim they are all about equality.

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14-08-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 03:51 PM)jennybee Wrote:  However, there is a disparity in pay between men and women for doing the same exact job. From CNN Money:

Male teachers earn a median of $1096 per week, while women earn $956

This is an interesting statistic, but it still doesn't answer the real question. Why is this gap present? What are the differences in levels of expertise, length of tenure at the institution, and so on between the two genders? Are there more male teachers who stay in the profession longer, while the women retire for various reasons (or find other work) and thus don't garner as many pay raises? Is it something else?

It's also worth noting that there are several areas where women earn more than men. Again, there is no information available as to why this happens. It's interesting, but it doesn't really tell us much.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-08-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 03:51 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 03:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Actually, it is. Mostly.

The "seventy-seven cents to the dollar" statistic that is so commonly thrown around is the result of some rather disingenuous manipulation of the actual statistics. Women working the same jobs as men receive equal pay.

The statistic that results in the seventy-seven cents sound bite is an extremely simplistic calculation done by the Census Bureau: comparing the median earnings of both men and women across the board, without regard for what jobs they are actually working. The total median earnings of all women are seventy-eight percent the total median earnings of all men, regardless of differing careers and so on.

The reasons for women having a lower median wage are many and varied, but research has shown that they are almost universally the cause of different lifestyle choices and career fields. Actual discrimination doesn't enter the equation, though there are feminists who have made the argument that societal pressures are keeping women in lower-paying fields (as nine of the ten lowest-expected-pay majors in college, such as early childhood education and social work, are almost entirely dominated by women).

When comparing the wages of men and women working in the same field and with similar qualifications, there is still some gap, though it's much smaller than one might expect (five cents on the dollar, on average) and varies widely on a case-by-case basis. There is a case to be made that discrimination may be behind this, but so far as I am aware, there simply hasn't been enough actual research done to draw a conclusion either way.

The Washington Post did an excellent article on the subject that you may be interested in. It cites the statistics directly, and is extremely informative.

You are right, discrimination is not the only potential reason for the pay gap. I also said that in one of my posts. I also would agree that the 78 cents is a bit of a broad brush. However, there is a disparity in pay between men and women for doing the same exact job. From CNN Money:

Male teachers earn a median of $1096 per week, while women earn $956

Retail sales, women earn 70 cents to the dollar.

Full-time lawyers, women earn 83 cents to the dollar.

Those are just a few examples.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/13/news/eco...-day-2015/

Again, not all factors taken into account. Statistics can paint any picture you need.
Perhaps not taking into account how many hours teachers put in or what are the subjects they teach, or male lawyers are more into criminal law that pays more then family law that women do more, for example.
Nothing more than feminist propaganda, poisoning everything they touch.
Going down that road will only get you bitter, angry and alone.

Maybe I do live in a different society like cljr said,who knows, but here things are simple.
If you work in any kind of government job , there is a set amount for the position + you have a quota for the level of education + quota for years in service and that's it. Gender doesn't play a role.
If you work in a private sector it just depends how good you are at your job and how good of a deal you can get yourself.

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14-08-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 04:22 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 03:51 PM)jennybee Wrote:  You are right, discrimination is not the only potential reason for the pay gap. I also said that in one of my posts. I also would agree that the 78 cents is a bit of a broad brush. However, there is a disparity in pay between men and women for doing the same exact job. From CNN Money:

Male teachers earn a median of $1096 per week, while women earn $956

Retail sales, women earn 70 cents to the dollar.

Full-time lawyers, women earn 83 cents to the dollar.

Those are just a few examples.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/13/news/eco...-day-2015/

Again, not all factors taken into account. Statistics can paint any picture you need.
Perhaps not taking into account how many hours teachers put in or what are the subjects they teach, or male lawyers are more into criminal law that pays more then family law that women do more, for example.
Nothing more than feminist propaganda, poisoning everything they touch.
Going down that road will only get you bitter, angry and alone.

Maybe I do live in a different society like cljr said,who knows, but here things are simple.
If you work in any kind of government job , there is a set amount for the position + you have a quota for the level of education + quota for years in service and that's it. Gender doesn't play a role.
If you work in a private sector it just depends how good you are at your job and how good of a deal you can get yourself.

I think you had said you are not from the U.S.--where do you live?

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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14-08-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 03:51 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 10:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  You clearly live in a very different world from anyone else in this thread.

Blah, blah , blah....

Women DO EARN less money then man in total, that is not even disputed. BUT, there is a very big and significant BUT ( read the next few sentences very carefully and several times if needed....

It doesn't take into account jobs they do. They just take all the working men and all the working women and yes, men make more money.
Because they choose higher payed jobs, work more hours...Not because they are payed more for the same job.
Male surgeon is payed the same as the female surgeon.
Actually, I have read the study by a serious organization, something like Stamford university or such (I have the link and I believe I posted it the feminism thread a while back , but I am not at my computer now) that in US women are payed 10-15 % more then man by the hour in certain fields.

Nowhere in the link you posted or in any regarding that matter this significant factor is taken into account, even tho in the bottom line that is all that matters.

Just think about it for a second. Would any employer ever pay somebody a dollar if they can get somebody to do the same job for 80c? If that claim was true, no man would ever get a job until there was no women left that wanted that job.

This classical feminist claim is debunked a million times over , you only have to do a simple google or youtube search.

Like I said, myths, disinformation and just plane ol lying.

On the other hand I can give you , and I did if you remember, a hundred and one well documented and undisputed example where women are privileged in western societies. From health care, education, family laws, penal law , pension, lower job requirements etc etc.

Never saw a feminist address any of those issues yet they claim they are all about equality.

Actually yes, feminist have addressed all those issue numerous times. Health care are less pricey for women because of gender roles. Men aren't supposed to show weakness so they don't consult and literally shoot themselves in the foot. Women have positive bias in family laws because they invest more of their time on their children than men. Which cause them to have lower revenue due to lack of professional advancement. This in turn causes them to require pension (lately in my province, the tendency tends to reverse has many women start to earn more and more).

Boys have a higher chances to drop out of schools because culturally we encourage them more into physical accomplishment than intellectual and social ones compared to girls. They also spend less time studying and reading than girls, but much more on sports. This takes a toll on their grades at some point. The lower number of male teachers due to gender stereotypes has been demonstrated has a problem.

Women have lower job requirements for some specific jobs AKA the army, the police and fire departments, but this is partly due to the specific social evolution of these institution which are still adapting to women and it actually constitute a source of discrimination against women has this is brought up to belittle them and brush aside their accomplishment in these domain. I would hardly qualify it a privilege especially for women who do work in those fields.

You seem to also be rather ignorant that until the late 70's it was legal in all Europe to pay a women twice less than a men for any factory job or in the mining industries. Men were still the basis of their workforce because they also had bias to hire men over women thanks to the sexism of their society. Men special value can and does outweigh the cheaper price of a female worker. I would also like to hear your opinion on gender typified jobs and their salary.

You only need a google search to find papers and articles from famous feminist person and organisation to see those address all those issue even down to men suicide rates. Sexism is the root of the issue and feminist are addressing the numerous head of this hydra so that both sex one day become equals.
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14-08-2015, 04:36 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 04:25 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 04:22 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Again, not all factors taken into account. Statistics can paint any picture you need.
Perhaps not taking into account how many hours teachers put in or what are the subjects they teach, or male lawyers are more into criminal law that pays more then family law that women do more, for example.
Nothing more than feminist propaganda, poisoning everything they touch.
Going down that road will only get you bitter, angry and alone.

Maybe I do live in a different society like cljr said,who knows, but here things are simple.
If you work in any kind of government job , there is a set amount for the position + you have a quota for the level of education + quota for years in service and that's it. Gender doesn't play a role.
If you work in a private sector it just depends how good you are at your job and how good of a deal you can get yourself.

I think you had said you are not from the U.S.--where do you live?
Serbia * waits for stereotyping *

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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14-08-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
(14-08-2015 04:32 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(14-08-2015 03:51 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Blah, blah , blah....

Women DO EARN less money then man in total, that is not even disputed. BUT, there is a very big and significant BUT ( read the next few sentences very carefully and several times if needed....

It doesn't take into account jobs they do. They just take all the working men and all the working women and yes, men make more money.
Because they choose higher payed jobs, work more hours...Not because they are payed more for the same job.
Male surgeon is payed the same as the female surgeon.
Actually, I have read the study by a serious organization, something like Stamford university or such (I have the link and I believe I posted it the feminism thread a while back , but I am not at my computer now) that in US women are payed 10-15 % more then man by the hour in certain fields.

Nowhere in the link you posted or in any regarding that matter this significant factor is taken into account, even tho in the bottom line that is all that matters.

Just think about it for a second. Would any employer ever pay somebody a dollar if they can get somebody to do the same job for 80c? If that claim was true, no man would ever get a job until there was no women left that wanted that job.

This classical feminist claim is debunked a million times over , you only have to do a simple google or youtube search.

Like I said, myths, disinformation and just plane ol lying.

On the other hand I can give you , and I did if you remember, a hundred and one well documented and undisputed example where women are privileged in western societies. From health care, education, family laws, penal law , pension, lower job requirements etc etc.

Never saw a feminist address any of those issues yet they claim they are all about equality.

Actually yes, feminist have addressed all those issue numerous times. Health care are less pricey for women because of gender roles. Men aren't supposed to show weakness so they don't consult and literally shoot themselves in the foot. Women have positive bias in family laws because they invest more of their time on their children than men. Which cause them to have lower revenue due to lack of professional advancement. This in turn causes them to require pension (lately in my province, the tendency tends to reverse has many women start to earn more and more).

Boys have a higher chances to drop out of schools because culturally we encourage them more into physical accomplishment than intellectual and social ones compared to girls. They also spend less time studying and reading than girls, but much more on sports. This takes a toll on their grades at some point. The lower number of male teachers due to gender stereotypes has been demonstrated has a problem.

Women have lower job requirements for some specific jobs AKA the army, the police and fire departments, but this is partly due to the specific social evolution of these institution which are still adapting to women and it actually constitute a source of discrimination against women has this is brought up to belittle them and brush aside their accomplishment in these domain. I would hardly qualify it a privilege especially for women who do work in those fields.

You seem to also be rather ignorant that until the late 70's it was legal in all Europe to pay a women twice less than a men for any factory job or in the mining industries. Men were still the basis of their workforce because they also had bias to hire men over women thanks to the sexism of their society. Men special value can and does outweigh the cheaper price of a female worker. I would also like to hear your opinion on gender typified jobs and their salary.

You only need a google search to find papers and articles from famous feminist person and organisation to see those address all those issue even down to men suicide rates. Sexism is the root of the issue and feminist are addressing the numerous head of this hydra so that both sex one day become equals.
Have links to confirm your claims?

It's not that i don't believe you but I have never come across any feminists addressing those issues in spite having it researched quite a bit. There was a guy on this forum that claimed the same and provided links to most prominent feminists sites ( his claim ) like feminism.org and such and we looked trough it and didn't find anything.

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14-08-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Feminism's many branches
I forgot to mention what I hate about feminism the most.
It's that feminism is trying to pin a label of an violent, oppressing rapist waiting to happen, to all men.
Like there is something inherently wrong with anybody who is born with a penis, and we all need to be fixed to be fit for society.
Actions like "teach men not to rape" make me puke.

That being said, I am on a fuckin' vacation in Spain, and instead of enjoying my paella I'm beating this dead horse.

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