Finland - basic income trial
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25-01-2017, 02:05 AM
Finland - basic income trial
Finland started to experiment with guaranteed basic income - for a trial it is only 2000 people who get €560 a month. This kind of support will remain even if person in question will find a job, though it will replace already existing social benefits.

More can be found here - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/j...unemployed

What are your thoughts on this?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-01-2017, 02:53 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
Curious. It is more socialist because they're just giving you money, the dreaded bugbear that is redistribution of wealth? Or is it more capitalist, because you can spend it on products and services on the open market, as opposed to being supplied directly with government provided necessities? Consider

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25-01-2017, 02:54 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
It's like the Golgafrinchans stuffing their track suits full of leaves.



(for this analogy to make sense, read "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams).

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25-01-2017, 03:41 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
(25-01-2017 02:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Curious. It is more socialist because they're just giving you money, the dreaded bugbear that is redistribution of wealth? Or is it more capitalist, because you can spend it on products and services on the open market, as opposed to being supplied directly with government provided necessities? Consider

Combination of both I guess. Not overtly socialist though as they give you that in place of benefits and who knows how it would look if implemented on larger scale.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-01-2017, 03:54 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
(25-01-2017 03:41 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(25-01-2017 02:53 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Curious. It is more socialist because they're just giving you money, the dreaded bugbear that is redistribution of wealth? Or is it more capitalist, because you can spend it on products and services on the open market, as opposed to being supplied directly with government provided necessities? Consider

Combination of both I guess. Not overtly socialist though as they give you that in place of benefits and who knows how it would look if implemented on larger scale.

Just spit-balling it from an American perspective. This would get instantly demonized by Republicans as being 'socialist', and therefore evil; even if it seems like it respects the choice of the individual more and would allow more money to go into the wider economy which would help for-profit businesses that already provide necessities.

It's an interesting American conservative Catch-22.

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25-01-2017, 04:04 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2017 04:08 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Finland - basic income trial
(25-01-2017 03:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(25-01-2017 03:41 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Combination of both I guess. Not overtly socialist though as they give you that in place of benefits and who knows how it would look if implemented on larger scale.

Just spit-balling it from an American perspective. This would get instantly demonized by Republicans as being 'socialist', and therefore evil; even if it seems like it respects the choice of the individual more and would allow more money to go into the wider economy which would help for-profit businesses that already provide necessities.

It's an interesting American conservative Catch-22.

It would be demonized in more countries I would say as another way of giving money for free or some such.

As it stand it is a mere curiosity, some real data might be available after 2 years. But I don't know of what use they will be as they will come from small sample in relatively wealthy country. ETA: There is also issue of money - would countries be able to afford such move. Guardian article mentions something about Switzerland which: In a referendum last year 75% of Swiss voters rejected a basic income scheme, but that proposal – to give every adult an unconditional minimum monthly income of SFr2,500 (£1,980) – would have meant increasing welfare spending from 19.4% to around a third of the country’s GDP, and did not have government backing.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-01-2017, 07:55 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
I'll be interested to see what happens.

I'd speculate that it might have the effect of pushing prices for necessities up for all, and the only way to make it workable is if prices are controlled somehow. I'm socialist enough to think a civilized society ought to make sure all of its members are provided with housing, food, and healthcare while still having some room for leisure and saving. But I don't have a clue how this can be done while at the same time encouraging all who can to be productive through work and service.

Seems as though this would be the way, way downmarket version of trust-fund kids/other people who live off of an income that doesn't involve any personal effort. Note: I'm not talking about trust-fund kids who actually work, but the ones who just...exist...and act as if their money--made by someone else--makes them inherently superior to the plebes.
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25-01-2017, 08:10 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
(25-01-2017 02:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ... it is only 2000 people who get €560 a month.

Doesn't seem like much but then again it's all dependent upon the local economy.

Just for fun I did a few seconds of research and found this: Cost of Living in Helsinki. Looks like €560 won't get you very far.

There's talk of doing a similar thing here in Ontario, Canada, in some small communities to see how things go. Source: https://www.ontario.ca/page/finding-bett...ct-ontario

That said, the current Ontario Premier, Kathleen Wynne, is roundly despised here due to her mismanagement of the Hydro file and her introduction of cap-and-trade fees, so pretty much anything she does is seen through that lens of her repeated failures. Source: Why Kathleen Wynne is so unpopular, and what she can do about it
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25-01-2017, 08:33 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
(25-01-2017 08:10 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(25-01-2017 02:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  ... it is only 2000 people who get €560 a month.

Doesn't seem like much but then again it's all dependent upon the local economy.

Just for fun I did a few seconds of research and found this: Cost of Living in Helsinki. Looks like €560 won't get you very far.

There's talk of doing a similar thing here in Ontario, Canada, in some small communities to see how things go. Source: https://www.ontario.ca/page/finding-bett...ct-ontario

That said, the current Ontario Premier, Kathleen Wynne, is roundly despised here due to her mismanagement of the Hydro file and her introduction of cap-and-trade fees, so pretty much anything she does is seen through that lens of her repeated failures. Source: Why Kathleen Wynne is so unpopular, and what she can do about it

It's not much but idea is I guess such that it should supplement other income positions not be only one.

From what I see this idea is becoming quite popular as it was discussed in Davos. Time will tell I suppose but I remain skeptical about chances if this initiative to be something more than short term, small scale social experiment.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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25-01-2017, 09:18 AM
RE: Finland - basic income trial
In the 1970's , a pilot project installing a minimum income was run in Dauphin, Manitoba, which produced some interesting data that is just being analysed now. Basically, providing minimum income helps reduce the stress of living paycheck-to-paycheck, which reduces healthcare, policing, and other social costs in the long run, making it a more efficient way to spend tax dollars, while still maintaining an incentive to work.

From the study:“If you think about caring for family, parents, a husband or children, it’s important work but doesn’t carry a paycheck,” Forget said. “Artists and writers who get paid little but enrich society. We have to broaden our idea of productive work.”

But it’s essentially about trust, she said. “If you give people a little bit of money, and you give people a little bit of trust, people will find a way to live a reasonable life.”

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

It's similar to the case made for the Housing First program in Salt Lake City that provides homes to chronically homeless people first, and then works on solving their other problems (mental and physical health, employment etc.): it's a more efficient way to spend tax dollars.

See, here's what I don't get about close-minded dogmatic people and their opposition to social programs: you can be anywhere on the political spectrum, when you see a program that helps people AND saves money, why not give a try, even if it initially seems counter-intuitive. What have you got to lose? If it doesn't work, you'll have the data to back up your claim. If it does work, well, everyone wins.

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