Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
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30-09-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 12:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 12:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Those are separate matters. Do you think it helps somehow for you to pretend you don't know that?

Torture is either punitive or interrogative. That case is neither - it is removing an obstruction to the exercise of a government office.

It is not possible in either your country or mine to compel testimony. If you're going to make up hypotheticals, could they at least be relevant?

It is not a separate matter. If waterboarding isn't going to compel a terrorist to tell the truth, why should we have any expectation that jailing a witness is going to compel them to testify truthfully?

What says it does?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-09-2015, 01:28 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 12:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is not a separate matter. If waterboarding isn't going to compel a terrorist to tell the truth, why should we have any expectation that jailing a witness is going to compel them to testify truthfully?

What says it does?

Heywood's love of bad analogies and irrelevant hypotheticals?

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30-09-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 12:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is not a separate matter. If waterboarding isn't going to compel a terrorist to tell the truth, why should we have any expectation that jailing a witness is going to compel them to testify truthfully?

Because the latter is grossly illegal under either your or my country's laws? As in, nobody would ever be in the position to do so, even if they were possessed by the fever dream that it's a good idea?

Your hypotheticals really need work, champ.

It seems that you are admitting now that torture is something completely arbitrary. Waterboarding is torture not because it is coercion but because it is against the law. Conversely Davis's incarceration wasn't torture is because it was legal.

The whims of politicians decide your morality Cjlr. Start thinking for yourself for once.
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30-09-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 01:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Because the latter is grossly illegal under either your or my country's laws? As in, nobody would ever be in the position to do so, even if they were possessed by the fever dream that it's a good idea?

Your hypotheticals really need work, champ.

It seems that you are admitting now that torture is something completely arbitrary. Waterboarding is torture not because it is coercion but because it is against the law. Conversely Davis's incarceration wasn't torture is because it was legal.

The whims of politicians decide your morality Cjlr. Start thinking for yourself for once.

You are really really dense... you know there is a vital clear indicated difference of the traits being described here? Right? Are you just going to go on trolling and ignore that for some pointless little quibble?

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30-09-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(29-09-2015 04:26 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Shortly after William Buckley was captured by Hezbollah in Lebanon many of his fellow agents either disappeared or were known to be killed. How did this happen? Because Hezbollah tortured Buckley for 15 months and he rolled on his cohorts.

Support this claim, please.
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30-09-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(29-09-2015 11:19 PM)morondog Wrote:  I don't have much difficulty Dodgy If you wanna be the "Good guys" then you don't do that shit. If you don't care about being the good guys and only care about winning whatever little conflict your suspect has info on, by all means go ahead. Don't expect people to sit back and say "Oh, that's alright then".\

And more to the point, don't sit astride the world lecturing every other nation on their human-rights abuses. Abu Ghraib showed us Americans to be hypocrites.
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30-09-2015, 01:58 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:46 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are really really dense... you know there is a vital clear indicated difference of the traits being described here? Right? Are you just going to go on trolling and ignore that for some pointless little quibble?

There is not. It is all coercion or punishment. Torture is exactly that. What defines torture for Cjlr is the whims of politicians. What defines torture for me is all the circumstance surrounding the coercion/punishment.

Cljr doesn't think for himself......he is sheep.
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30-09-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 01:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Because the latter is grossly illegal under either your or my country's laws? As in, nobody would ever be in the position to do so, even if they were possessed by the fever dream that it's a good idea?

Your hypotheticals really need work, champ.

It seems that you are admitting now that torture is something completely arbitrary.

Subjective does not mean arbitrary. Are you even trying?

(30-09-2015 01:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Waterboarding is torture not because it is coercion but because it is against the law. Conversely Davis's incarceration wasn't torture is because it was legal.

Laws proceed from social consensus in democracies, Heywood. Did you miss that part of remedial civics?

I see that now you're back to Davis - who was, lest you pretend to forget, jailed to prevent her obstruction of the duties of her office - instead of your non-existed coerced witness testimony. If you're obstinate enough to call all actions of the legal system "torture", involving as they do restrictions on the complete freedom of action of any citizen at any time under any circumstances for any reason, then the term is indeed meaningless.

Most definitions amount to excessive pain, stress, or deprivation in the pursuit of some end. "Excessive" is necessarily a value judgement. Societies require standards to operate, and these are determined through some collective process, because how the fuck else would they come about? It should go without saying that in establish a common standard for some social grouping, there will be individuals whose views differ from the line thereby established.

I really don't know why I'm wasting time explaining this to you, when you either know it already and like playing dumb, or will just go ahead and ignore it regardless.

(30-09-2015 01:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The whims of politicians decide your morality Cjlr. Start thinking for yourself for once.

Is that the best you can do?

Damn, son. I thought trolling was the one thing you were good at.

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30-09-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:58 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2015 01:46 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You are really really dense... you know there is a vital clear indicated difference of the traits being described here? Right? Are you just going to go on trolling and ignore that for some pointless little quibble?

There is not. It is all coercion or punishment. Torture is exactly that. What defines torture for Cjlr is the whims of politicians. What defines torture for me is all the circumstance surrounding the coercion/punishment.

Since your definition is idiotic, I merely suggested you consult some others that exist as alternatives, in order to see how meaningful distinctions might be drawn.

Imprisoning a murderer to prevent additional murders necessarily involves restricting the murderer's freedom. I further assume they might not like it very much. However, their incarceration serves to prevent harm to society as a whole. Beating them for kicks does nothing further to prevent harm to the rest of society.

It'd be nice if you'd at least pretend to have a point.

(30-09-2015 01:58 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Cljr doesn't think for himself......he is sheep.

And your substantiation for the ludicrous remark is... ?

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30-09-2015, 05:30 PM
RE: Fiorina Tries Waterboarding
(30-09-2015 01:58 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Cljr doesn't think for himself......he is sheep.

Why is everyone's natural instinct to call cjrl "cljr". I experience it myself and have to remind myself it's "cjrl". What the fuck is up with that?

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