Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
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08-11-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(08-11-2016 04:08 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  The definition differs from believer to believer. I'm heard some say it's a Hippo, others a wildebeest.

Verse translated by Stephen Mitchell: "Look now: the Beast that I made: he eats grass like a bull. Look: the power in his thighs, the pulsing sinews of his belly. His penis stiffens like a pine; his testicles bulge with vigor."

Yes, I've heard that attempt to make it a bit less mythological ("After all, they reckon, "God wouldn't talk to Job and make up imaginary creatures, would he?"), but in order to do so, you must ignore other parts of the description, such as "Its tail sways like a cedar", which would rule out the hippo and wildebeest.

However, I'm more partial to the fire-breathing sea creature, Leviathan:

1“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”

(I hid it in a spoiler tag, because I cited all of Job 41, and below are my favorite parts.)

The fundies will often say it is a whale or some other sort of sea creature, but:

12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.


So... not a whale.

13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?


I suppose the answer would be "Captain Ahab", right? Well, that or the Japanese trawler "research" fleet.

14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?


Definitely not a whale. A shark, maybe?

18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.

20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.


Ooooh, a fire-breathing shark! (With mighty limbs.)

[Image: bTg8pz8.jpg]

Clearly, a seagoing mount suitable for Judge Dredd and his land-mount Velociraptor. Big Grin

31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.


In case anyone tries to say it's not trying to describe a whale or shark or other sea-creature... the fish hook bit in the beginning isn't 100% clear.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-11-2016, 01:19 AM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(08-11-2016 05:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?


Definitely not a whale. A shark, maybe?

Are you forgetting toothed whales e.g. sperm whales? Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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09-11-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(08-11-2016 05:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.

If I was Job, I would have told god:

Umm yeah, god, that's a non-sequitur, a basic logical fallacy, could you at least stay on the subject? Why are you such a dick?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-11-2016, 03:46 PM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(08-11-2016 12:13 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Most people believe dinosaurs became extinct before any humans existed, but many cultures have legends of creatures called dragons that closely resemble dinosaurs. This fact indicates that the extinction of dinosaurs must be very recent.

Those two statements are not logically connected.

It's much more plausible that somebody found a dinosaur fossil and made a legend based on them.

Quote:There are some who believe that there are still living dinosaurs.

Others belive that the Earth is flat. Not sure which I believe less. Consider

Quote:Some of these dragon legends speak of dragons that breath fire. Is it possible that such a creature actually existed? The best way to answer that question is to look at an animal that we know does exist, the bombardier beetle.

You know that there's a difference between boiing peroxide and fire, yes?

You understand that certain physical processes don't scale up well, no?

Quote:Bombardier beetles defend themselves by expelling a hot liquid from their bodies. What if some dinosaurs had this ability but expelled the liquid from its nose or mouth? Because dinosaurs are much larger than beetles the amount of liquid would be much greater and if it landed on something flammable it might even be capable of starting a fire. To an observer it would appear that the dinosaur or dragon was breathing fire. Fire breathing dragons might not be a product of human imagination but something that actually did exist at one time.

You didn't so much shoot holes in your credibility as hogtie it and execute it gangland style.

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09-11-2016, 03:57 PM (This post was last modified: 09-11-2016 04:04 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(08-11-2016 12:13 PM)theophilus Wrote:  Most people believe dinosaurs became extinct before any humans existed, but many cultures have legends of creatures called dragons that closely resemble dinosaurs. This fact indicates that the extinction of dinosaurs must be very recent. (There are some who believe that there are still living dinosaurs. http://www.newanimal.org/dinosaurs.htm ) Some of these dragon legends speak of dragons that breath fire. Is it possible that such a creature actually existed? The best way to answer that question is to look at an animal that we know does exist, the bombardier beetle. Here is what Wikipedia says about it.

Quote:Bombardier beetles are ground beetles (Carabidae) in the tribes Brachinini, Paussini, Ozaenini, or Metriini—more than 500 species altogether—which are most notable for the defense mechanism that gives them their name: when disturbed, they eject a hot noxious chemical spray from the tip of their abdomen with a popping sound.

The spray is produced from a reaction between two chemical compounds, hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide, which are stored in two reservoirs in the beetle’s abdomen. When the aqueous solution of hydroquinones and hydrogen peroxide reaches the vestibule, catalysts facilitate the decomposition of the hydrogen peroxide and the oxidation of the hydroquinone. Heat from the reaction brings the mixture to near the boiling point of water and produces gas that drives the ejection. The damage caused can be fatal to attacking insects. Some bombardier beetles can direct the spray over a wide range of directions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle

Bombardier beetles defend themselves by expelling a hot liquid from their bodies. What if some dinosaurs had this ability but expelled the liquid from its nose or mouth? Because dinosaurs are much larger than beetles the amount of liquid would be much greater and if it landed on something flammable it might even be capable of starting a fire. To an observer it would appear that the dinosaur or dragon was breathing fire. Fire breathing dragons might not be a product of human imagination but something that actually did exist at one time.

So dragons might be real because of bombardier beetles?

And dinosaurs probably lived a few thousand years ago because somebody made some stories with dragons that resemble dinosaurs in their stories?

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It's apparent my estimation of your intellect, as low as it was, will have to be revised dramatically downward.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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09-11-2016, 04:37 PM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
Hey Theo. Still waiting for a response. Saw you stopped in. Was hoping you would engage a little.

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Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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10-11-2016, 02:15 AM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(09-11-2016 01:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-11-2016 05:07 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?


Definitely not a whale. A shark, maybe?

Are you forgetting toothed whales e.g. sperm whales? Consider

Ah, yes I was. Thank you. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-11-2016, 09:50 AM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
I've never known Theo to actually respond to anything. So why post BS and expect people to actually engage with it when you don't engage with it?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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10-11-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Fire breathing dragons and bombardier beetles
(10-11-2016 09:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I've never known Theo to actually respond to anything. So why post BS and expect people to actually engage with it when you don't engage with it?

I agree.

I'm starting to engage more, even in RL. I'm currently have a back and forth with an old neighbor of mine. She is a Trumpeter and doesn't seem to grasp why I am so frustrated. I've asked her questions only to have question that diverted.

I give answers to her's and make sure I stated the people that avoid questions are often people that fear the answer.

I like to hope that most people when ever presenting a statement such as Theo, that they are looking for engagement. Maybe a shred of doubt. When I was a believer looking for answers to how and why. I found myself wrestling with myself. Eventually you have to come to accept perceptions of the world

Theo's question is one I asked myself early on. I want to say around Junior High. Not so much from a religious stand point. I don't think I new that "dragons" showed up in the bible. But I wondered how the concept of dragons could be found across the world at the far corners of it, when many society's weren't even aware of each other.

I did find answers. But i'll give Theo a little more time. Maybe another day. I have to let him find these answers for himself. Instead of spoon feeding it to him. He has to be able to come to reason on his own terms.

If he presents himself as a closed minded individual like theBorg, Alla, or socialview. Then I will treat him the same way as I do them. Ether with pity or disdain.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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