Fire the government
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-10-2013, 05:59 AM
RE: Fire the government
The guys in Washington are an irresponsible lot, a bunch of little boys in a sand box throwing sand in each other's eyes.

They should all be sent home. Every one of them. Frusty

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: Fire the government
It's the same method again, rinse wash and repeat until you actually alter something legitimately

"Love is hot, Truth is molten!"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 07:06 AM
RE: Fire the government
(30-09-2013 10:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 10:21 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Yes, but remember the circumstances in 1995.

I was 2. Weeping
I wonder if you'd be saying that if you were a Federal worker who had to work tomorrow, and might not get paid for a unknown length of time, or
had a vacation planned with your family, in one of the parks, and were now up a creek ?

I have clothes older than you. Yeegads! Sadcryface

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Anjele's post
01-10-2013, 07:17 AM
RE: Fire the government
(01-10-2013 07:06 AM)Anjele Wrote:  
(30-09-2013 10:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I was 2. Weeping
I wonder if you'd be saying that if you were a Federal worker who had to work tomorrow, and might not get paid for a unknown length of time, or
had a vacation planned with your family, in one of the parks, and were now up a creek ?

I have clothes older than you. Yeegads! Sadcryface

Haha, I have shoes twice his age. And proud of it, I've earned my badges.

Bucky, I didn't know you were this young. Respect, you are wise beyond your years. Smile

[Image: dobie.png]

Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dom's post
01-10-2013, 07:22 AM
RE: Fire the government
A government being unable to pass its budget in Australia would be considered blocking supply[1][2]. Under Australian law if a legal deadlock occurs such that a bill proposed by the house is rejected twice by the Senate the government has the right to trigger a fresh election to replace the membership of both houses[3]. The exact legal fit to American politics is not straightforward, but it does seem like coming to the point of a government shutdown should also result in everyone responsible needing to request a fresh mandate from their constituents. Perhaps a constitutional amendment is in order?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_supply
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_...ing_supply
[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_dissolution

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Hafnof's post
01-10-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: Fire the government
@BuckyBall,

Quote:The growth that happened in the Clinton admin has not been demonstrated as having come from the shut down. So both your points are, at this point, unproven.
I noticed you just happened to forget the welfare reform that the Republicans for decades had bitched about, Clinton finally got done. And of course he omitted the two wars Dubya started that geometrically increased the debt. Nice try. Atheism, (or not) has nothing to do with anything. Actually your saying you have "the truth" sounds pretty religious to me.

Science is based on finding axioms and conducting thought experiments. Einstein could have never worked out his theories based on observation. So, do a thought experiment. Imagine there's a slider that adjusts what percent of the public is working for the government, and you are the master who can slide it from 0% to 100%. Right now, imagine the slider is at around 25% (meaning 1/4 of the people are working for the government). You wonder what effect it has to make small adjustments, say 24% or 26%, but the effects are subtle and there's so many other moving factors it's hard to pin down. The logical thing is to move the slider way up, say to 90%, where the effects will be very clear. At 90% working for the government, that means that only 10% of the population is building all the homes, cars, and all the other goods that 100% of the population needs, and they also have the burden of cleaning all the teeth, mowing all the lawns, and all the other services for 100% of the population. Imagine the HUGE work burden when only 10% of the population has to provide all the goods and services for the whole population. And imagine the unbearable tax burden since every one of those 10% also has to pay enough taxes to cover the salaries of 9 government employees, so the tax rate has to be over 90%. The effects of small movements, say from 25% to 30%, or from 40% to 50% are hard to isolate because there's so much other stuff going on. But, what is undeniable is that as you move the slider closer to 100%, you're putting a bigger burden on those in the private sector.

Clinton was forced to give in and move the slider down a couple notches with all the spending cuts. This DID relieve some burden on the private sector. That's not 'faith', it's based on axioms and thought experiments, just like Einstein did to understand relativity. Of course, the booming economy of the late 90's was fueled by the tech bubble with the Federal Reserve stoking the fire, and the government spending cuts, I agree, played a minimal role. But I don't think the high-flying economy of the late 90's was even a good thing since it was a bubble that came crashing down and we had no growth in the 00's. Personally, I favor the Swiss economy that, in the 90's, had smooth, steady growth, at which time the Keynesians blasted them for having the slowest growth in the Euro zone and said their monetary policy (a gold standard) was slowing them down, because during the 00's, the Swiss didn't have a crash, they still had smooth, steady growth, at which time the Keynesians remained silent on the matter. I like continuous smooth, steady growth more than the wild roller coaster we have in the US.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 08:30 AM
RE: Fire the government
(01-10-2013 08:27 AM)frankksj Wrote:  @BuckyBall,

Quote:The growth that happened in the Clinton admin has not been demonstrated as having come from the shut down. So both your points are, at this point, unproven.
I noticed you just happened to forget the welfare reform that the Republicans for decades had bitched about, Clinton finally got done. And of course he omitted the two wars Dubya started that geometrically increased the debt. Nice try. Atheism, (or not) has nothing to do with anything. Actually your saying you have "the truth" sounds pretty religious to me.

Science is based on finding axioms and conducting thought experiments. Einstein could have never worked out his theories based on observation. So, do a thought experiment. Imagine there's a slider that adjusts what percent of the public is working for the government, and you are the master who can slide it from 0% to 100%. Right now, imagine the slider is at around 25% (meaning 1/4 of the people are working for the government). You wonder what effect it has to make small adjustments, say 24% or 26%, but the effects are subtle and there's so many other moving factors it's hard to pin down. The logical thing is to move the slider way up, say to 90%, where the effects will be very clear. At 90% working for the government, that means that only 10% of the population is building all the homes, cars, and all the other goods that 100% of the population needs, and they also have the burden of cleaning all the teeth, mowing all the lawns, and all the other services for 100% of the population. Imagine the HUGE work burden when only 10% of the population has to provide all the goods and services for the whole population. And imagine the unbearable tax burden since every one of those 10% also has to pay enough taxes to cover the salaries of 9 government employees, so the tax rate has to be over 90%. The effects of small movements, say from 25% to 30%, or from 40% to 50% are hard to isolate because there's so much other stuff going on. But, what is undeniable is that as you move the slider closer to 100%, you're putting a bigger burden on those in the private sector.

Clinton was forced to give in and move the slider down a couple notches with all the spending cuts. This DID relieve some burden on the private sector. That's not 'faith', it's based on axioms and thought experiments, just like Einstein did to understand relativity. Of course, the booming economy of the late 90's was fueled by the tech bubble with the Federal Reserve stoking the fire. Plus I don't think the high-flying economy of the late 90's was even a good thing since it was a bubble that came crashing down and we had no growth in the 00's. Personally, I favor the Swiss economy that, in the 90's, had smooth, steady growth, at which time the Keynesians blasted them for having the slowest growth in the Euro zone and said their monetary policy (a gold standard) was slowing them down, because during the 00's, the Swiss didn't have a crash, they still had smooth, steady growth, at which time the Keynesians remained silent on the matter. I like continuous smooth, steady growth more than the wild roller coaster we have in the US.

False premise.
Science, including the "Dismal Science" (Economics) is based on facts and measurable observations. "Thought experiments" can help in developing hypotheses, but that's not what science is based on. Your opinions are just that. Everyone has their opinions. Opinions are not "truth".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 08:50 AM
RE: Fire the government
@BuckyBall,

(01-10-2013 08:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  False premise.
Science, including the "Dismal Science" (Economics) is based on facts and measurable observations. "Thought experiments" can help in developing hypotheses, but that's not what science is based on. Your opinions are just that. Everyone has their opinions. Opinions are not "truth".

Scientists are willing to test their theories and challenge their assumptions. But you ran from my thought experiment. You didn't point out any flaws in it. You just dismissed it again. Will you have the balls to read it and answer two basic questions:

Q: If you slid the bar to 90% as I suggested, do you agree that would put an enormous burden on the 10% in the private sector that had to make all the goods and services and pay the salaries for the other 90%?

Q: If you concede the answer is 'yes', then how can you suggest that moving the slider in small increments towards the 90% is not moving in that direction? I mean even if you adjusted it by 1% each time and the effect wasn't measurable, you know that after 65 of those small 1% adjustments it would reach 90% and the effects you conceded would be realized.

You may not detect the difference when you move the volume knob on your stereo 1 notch, but I assure you that every notch you move it up the volume is getting louder.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Fire the government
Also in theory every x% of movement of jobs from private sector to government should generate some sort of service taking the burden off the consumer.

...It's a closed system at 0% and at 100%

Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-10-2013, 09:52 AM
RE: Fire the government
(01-10-2013 09:10 AM)ridethespiral Wrote:  Also in theory every x% of movement of jobs from private sector to government should generate some sort of service taking the burden off the consumer.

...It's a closed system at 0% and at 100%

Of course, there are LOTS of other factors going on. For example, if you move the slider to 0%, there is no tax burden on the private sector, BUT there is also no government infrastructure so the private sector would have take over that role. And, similarly, if you move the slider to 90%, presumably that means the government would be taking over the production of goods and services (like building cars).

That's the problem with using purely empirical data. There are SO many moving factors, it's impossible to isolate the effects of just one issue since they're so interrelated. If you do a thought experiment like this, it's easier to look at the one effect.

The point is that IF the government can cut and still continue provide the same amount of necessary infrastructure, the burden WILL be less. And if you grow the government purely by adding bureaucracies, without adding state run enterprises that take over some of the production of goods and services, the burden on the private sector will increase.

If you do a thought experiment, this conclusion should be obvious. Therefore, when discussing cuts or growth in government, the discussion should focus on WHAT government services are getting cut or expanded and how that will impact the private sector, because it should be obvious that cutting the size of government without cutting government services, is always good. I've studied the Swiss system a lot because the overall % of government is the same as the US, but they offer more government services than even the big-government countries, like Sweden. Therefore, if we study how they do it, it's clear that the US CAN cut government spending AND still provide more and better infrastructure, and that this would be a relief to the private sector.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: