Fire the government
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04-10-2013, 04:09 PM
RE: Fire the government
(03-10-2013 11:01 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  [I'm not really following this, I've decided American politics is so retarded it kills my brain cells so I've stopped following American politics.

This is why Moms stopped following politics! Seriously tired of merry-go-round. You can call it apathy...sure, why not? It doesn't matter, nothing ever really changes and it's just same old shit repeated to varying degrees.

Now...need to put a quarter in the swear jar. Wink

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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04-10-2013, 04:27 PM
RE: Fire the government
Quote:Once again, you are wrong. I am not a U.S. citizen. I go back to Canada and I'm done.

We went through this already in the other thread. You have to file paperwork and pay an exit tax if you have over a certain amount of assets or income before you're allowed to surrender your greencard. Otherwise, you'll still be stuck filing taxes and getting Obamacare in the US, even though you won't use it.

If I, as a US citizen, however, went to Canada, got legal residency, lived there and paid into the Canadian tax and health care system, and spent, say 10 months out of the year in Canada, and was covered by Canada's health system even for those 2 months I was in the US, I would still be required to buy US health insurance from one of the private, for-profit insurance companies that donated to Obama's campaign, even though I would have no use for such insurance and would never use it. You don't dispute this, correct? Is that fair?

Quote:No one is required to buy health insurance. No force is used if you don't

Really? So let's say for the year 2014 I owe $5,000 in federal income taxes, and $6,000 were withheld from my employer. But I don't have health insurance. I will not get back the $1,000 I am owed, because it will be used to cover the Obamacare penalty. Now, in 2015 I learn my lesson and adjust the number of dependents on my W4 to be sure that my withholding is less than my taxes, and I deduct from my taxes the $1,000 I was owed from 2014. The IRS will not accept this, since they will claim they had a right to confiscate my 2014 money, AND that I have to pay a penalty for 2015 for not having Obamacare. If I continue to refuse to pay those Obamacare-related penalties, the IRS will place a lien against me and try to confiscate the money in my bank account, or garnish my wages. If I continue to resist Obamacare by taking evasive measures to hide my money from the IRS, I will get charged with a crime. And if I continue to resist, I will get hauled off to jail. And if I continue to resist arrest, I will get shot and tased.

Do you dispute that sequence of events? If not, then how do you argue that "force" is not being used?

I know you guys always insist it's not force and violence because all I have to do is comply and nothing will happen. But that's like saying it's not use of force if I pull a gun to your head and tell you to give me your wallet and nothing bad will happen if you comply. Of course, threatening people with the use of violence if they don't comply IS in itself violence. Try to dispute this seriously.
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04-10-2013, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2013 06:05 PM by Chas.)
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 03:58 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 03:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  Once again, you are wrong. I am not a U.S. citizen. I go back to Canada and I'm done.

And no one is required to buy health insurance. No force is used if you don't.

No one is required to buy health insurance? That's like saying if the Christian God exists He doesn't require you to be Christian either. You can choose to go to hell just as you can choose to pay the fine. In both cases you aren't being compelled by force right?

It's a financial trade-off, a minor tax vs. buying health insurance.

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04-10-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 04:27 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:Once again, you are wrong. I am not a U.S. citizen. I go back to Canada and I'm done.

We went through this already in the other thread. You have to file paperwork and pay an exit tax if you have over a certain amount of assets or income before you're allowed to surrender your greencard. Otherwise, you'll still be stuck filing taxes and getting Obamacare in the US, even though you won't use it.

If I, as a US citizen, however, went to Canada, got legal residency, lived there and paid into the Canadian tax and health care system, and spent, say 10 months out of the year in Canada, and was covered by Canada's health system even for those 2 months I was in the US, I would still be required to buy US health insurance from one of the private, for-profit insurance companies that donated to Obama's campaign, even though I would have no use for such insurance and would never use it. You don't dispute this, correct? Is that fair?

The financial bar is set very high. One has to have a great deal of wealth for those penalties to kick in. For me, not an issue.

Quote:
Quote:No one is required to buy health insurance. No force is used if you don't

Really? So let's say for the year 2014 I owe $5,000 in federal income taxes, and $6,000 were withheld from my employer. But I don't have health insurance. I will not get back the $1,000 I am owed, because it will be used to cover the Obamacare penalty. Now, in 2015 I learn my lesson and adjust the number of dependents on my W4 to be sure that my withholding is less than my taxes, and I deduct from my taxes the $1,000 I was owed from 2014. The IRS will not accept this, since they will claim they had a right to confiscate my 2014 money, AND that I have to pay a penalty for 2015 for not having Obamacare. If I continue to refuse to pay those Obamacare-related penalties, the IRS will place a lien against me and try to confiscate the money in my bank account, or garnish my wages. If I continue to resist Obamacare by taking evasive measures to hide my money from the IRS, I will get charged with a crime. And if I continue to resist, I will get hauled off to jail. And if I continue to resist arrest, I will get shot and tased.

Do you dispute that sequence of events? If not, then how do you argue that "force" is not being used?

I know you guys always insist it's not force and violence because all I have to do is comply and nothing will happen. But that's like saying it's not use of force if I pull a gun to your head and tell you to give me your wallet and nothing bad will happen if you comply. Of course, threatening people with the use of violence if they don't comply IS in itself violence. Try to dispute this seriously.

So you've changed your definition of 'force'?

You previously denied that financial penalties were 'force'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-10-2013, 06:16 PM
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 05:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 03:58 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  No one is required to buy health insurance? That's like saying if the Christian God exists He doesn't require you to be Christian either. You can choose to go to hell just as you can choose to pay the fine. In both cases you aren't being compelled by force right?

It's a financial trade-off, a minor tax vs. buying health insurance.

A financial trade-off forced upon us.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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04-10-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 06:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 05:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's a financial trade-off, a minor tax vs. buying health insurance.

A financial trade-off forced upon us.

There are many things "forced upon" you.
(Congress PASSED the damn law.)
It's how civilized societies agree to work.

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Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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04-10-2013, 07:29 PM
RE: Fire the government
@Chas, you sure have a knack for avoiding any questions you find uncomfortable to answer.

(04-10-2013 04:27 PM)frankksj Wrote:  If I, as a US citizen, however, went to Canada, got legal residency, lived there and paid into the Canadian tax and health care system, and spent, say 10 months out of the year in Canada, and was covered by Canada's health system even for those 2 months I was in the US, I would still be required to buy US health insurance from one of the private, for-profit insurance companies that donated to Obama's campaign, even though I would have no use for such insurance and would never use it. You don't dispute this, correct? Is that fair?

Your answer was, predictably, silence.

Quote:So you've changed your definition of 'force'? You previously denied that financial penalties were 'force'.

Of course not. I gave you a very clear example how refusing to pay the Obamacare penalty would lead to be shot and/or tased. The Swiss version of the IRS does not use force. In the US, the IRS very much uses force. Did you see today's news about Lauryn Hill? That's not force? She didn't just get a fine, she got handcuffed and thrown in jail. That is force. Nothing I said has changed.

Side note: It's true that the ACA doesn't give the IRS to imprison people for refusing to pay Obamacare. However, that's irrelevant, since the IRS has discretion in applying the money. If you owe $10,000 in taxes + a $1,000 Obamacare penalty, the IRS will simply apply the first $1k of your $10k payment to the Obamacare penalty, claiming that you only paid $9k on your $10k tax bill, and then they can haul you off at gunpoint. So it's silly to argue that a 'penalty' which is imposed by the IRS is not force.
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04-10-2013, 07:36 PM
RE: Fire the government
Quote:There are many things "forced upon" you.
(Congress PASSED the damn law.)
It's how civilized societies agree to work.

Really? So if Congress re-instated slavery, you would argue that's how civilized societies agree to work?

Besides, define "civilized"? I would say the most civilized societies are those where the people live the longest, happiest, healthiest lives. Now, come up with a ranking of the countries in the world by how much they "force upon" their citizens. I can guarantee you the countries which are the most civilized, do the least amount "forcing upon" their citizens. And the countries that do the most, like North Korea, are total trainwrecks.

So it seems the core issue is this: Congress is adding more force and coercion with Obamacare. Is that a good thing? Should we take incremental steps to be more like North Korea and the other countries that initiate lots of force against their citizens, which are the countries where people die poor, young and destitute? Or should we go in the other direction, reducing the amount of force the government initiates, trying to be like the countries where people live the longest, healthiest, happiest lives?
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04-10-2013, 07:48 PM
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 07:36 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
Quote:There are many things "forced upon" you.
(Congress PASSED the damn law.)
It's how civilized societies agree to work.

Really? So if Congress re-instated slavery, you would argue that's how civilized societies agree to work?

Besides, define "civilized"? I would say the most civilized societies are those where the people live the longest, happiest, healthiest lives. Now, come up with a ranking of the countries in the world by how much they "force upon" their citizens. I can guarantee you the countries which are the most civilized, do the least amount "forcing upon" their citizens. And the countries that do the most, like North Korea, are total trainwrecks.

So it seems the core issue is this: Congress is adding more force and coercion with Obamacare. Is that a good thing? Should we take incremental steps to be more like North Korea and the other countries that initiate lots of force against their citizens, which are the countries where people die poor, young and destitute? Or should we go in the other direction, reducing the amount of force the government initiates, trying to be like the countries where people live the longest, healthiest, happiest lives?

Oh please. Spare me.
The Republican SCOTUS said it was constitutional.
They are not "adding" anything. They are insuring you pay your share.
Just like all the other tax laws.
We should move, just like all other developed, enlighted Western democracies, and make sure EVERYONE has health care. And if we're lucky, maybe we'll catch up to their superior health care systems.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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04-10-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: Fire the government
(04-10-2013 06:16 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2013 05:29 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's a financial trade-off, a minor tax vs. buying health insurance.

A financial trade-off forced upon us.

Legislation passed by a duly, legally, Constitutionally elected House, then passed by a duly, legally, Constitutionally elected Senate, then signed into law by a duly, legally, Constitutionally elected President.

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