Firearms/Second Amendment
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30-01-2011, 11:30 AM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 09:03 AM)BnW Wrote:  I'm ok with guns being legal, per se. But, restrictions on the types of guns, especially hand guns, that you can own and the number of rounds you can fire without reloading is where I think that some restrictions should be put in place.

There's no need for these restrictions. If someone is going to do something illegal no amount of restrictions are going to change that. The Virginia Tech shooter brought his guns on campus and into the classrooms. Those were "Gun Free" areas. Why didn't those restrictions work? The cat is out of the bag, so to speak. There are already restrictions in place, and hoops I have to jump through, in order to get a firearm. There is no law that we've made that someone hasn't found a way to break.

In a perfect world where everyone hugged we wouldn't need guns. But we are not that evolved yet and I want to defend myself against predators in the manner I choose.

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30-01-2011, 12:12 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 11:30 AM)aesirus Wrote:  There's no need for these restrictions. If someone is going to do something illegal no amount of restrictions are going to change that. The Virginia Tech shooter brought his guns on campus and into the classrooms.

Yes, but the point is that once he was on campus with his weapons he had enough fire power to go on a rampage with little chance of getting away from him. Obviously any gun could have been used, but a gun that had to be reloaded more often may have given more people the opportunity to get away.

Society has already drawn a line on this. The question is always on where the line can be. You can't go out and buy an automatic weapon (although you can buy a semi-automatic weapon and convert it easily enough), a bazooka, or a flame thrower. You can't have your own nuclear weapon either. Why not? These things are all arms, so why can't we have them? The obvious answer is because we, as a society, have decided that the average person having these things is detrimental to the health, safety and well being of society as a whole. And, the fact that these things are not legal is probably the reason some lunatic has not gone a a killing spree with one of them. If we reduce the amount of firepower the average person can ave, we most likely will save lives. No other country in the world has these types of mass random shootings like we do. That is not a coincidence.

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30-01-2011, 12:30 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
Actually you can buy an automatic weapon but that's another discussion. Wink It is NOT easy to convert a semi automatic weapon to automatic. And quite honestly more people would be alive if the Arizona shooter had used an automatic weapon.

I'm not trying to be snide but this took me 10 seconds on Google.

Mass shootings happen all over the world. Even in heavy gun restricted countries.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...42690.html

You can't legislate crazy. And you shouldn't burden one group of people for the actions of a few. You have no issues with restricting guns because it isn't something you're interested in and believe that it doesn't concern you.

But I say everyone's personal liberty is important. I see laws designed for our safety as dangerous because they run to that well so often. I compare it to the, 'what about the children' argument. If this seems rambling it's because I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet. Big Grin

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30-01-2011, 12:38 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
No, you can't legislate crazy, but you can reduce the carnage that crazy can cause. And, I did not articulate my point well: the US is not the only country that has these problems but we have a lot more of them then anywhere else. Again, I don't think it's a coincidence and I don't think it's because we have a higher percentage of lunatics.

Quote:But I say everyone's personal liberty is important. I see laws designed for our safety as dangerous because they run to that well so often. I compare it to the, 'what about the children' argument. If this seems rambling it's because I just woke up and haven't had my coffee yet. Big Grin

No, not rambling and it makes perfect sense. And, as a general rule I agree with you. Every time we have some kind of near miss with a terrorist attack it seems that the primary reaction is a further curtailing of civil liberties. We must all put up with one more procedure that assumes we are a criminal before we prove we are not and allowed to board an airplane, or attend a football game, or wherever else it's going. I absolutely agree with your premise that these types of reactions are very dangerous.

As for your comment that I don't care if they further restrict guns because it won't impact me, it's a fair observation. I think I am a fairly objective person, but I obviously care more about the things that impact me directly. I go ape shit whenever I hear about illegal wire taps, full body scans at the airport, etc. but tell me they are reducing the types of guns that will be legal and I barely give it a shrug. Maybe I need to re-think that a little.

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30-01-2011, 12:50 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 09:03 AM)BnW Wrote:  In my mind, my right to walk around in a public place should trump your right to fire 30 shots a second instead of 19. We put reasonable restrictions on civil liberties all the time. Freedom of speech is the most important right for Americans, yet we allow regulation of time, place and manner.

Because it doesn't say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be reasonably infringed, and it's anybody's guess what 'reasonable' means."

Quote:So, why not restrictions on they types of weapons or ammunition that a normal person can purchase?

There are restrictions on that already anyway. Try and buy a fully-automatic M60 machine gun, or a mortar (can be done, but it's stupid expensive and you need a special license for these, which is expensive and hard to get, and not all states would even consider giving one to anybody)

Quote:Obviously ... if you have guns these things can always happen

Really? I've dragged out aaaaalll my guns, and watched them for hours and hours on end. I'm weird that way. You know what happened? Fuck all.

Quote:I'm ok with guns being legal, per se. But, restrictions on the types of guns, especially hand guns, that you can own and the number of rounds you can fire without reloading is where I think that some restrictions should be put in place.

There are many restrictions in place, and the NRA helped putting them in place.
(30-01-2011 12:12 PM)BnW Wrote:  You can't go out and buy an automatic weapon (although you can buy a semi-automatic weapon and convert it easily enough), a bazooka, or a flame thrower.

You can buy all of these things, legally, or build your own, legally. All you have to have is money and patience. Lots of both.

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30-01-2011, 02:45 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
BnW those things drive me crazy as well. What's made worse is that so many just nod. Wire tapping citizens without a warrant? Sure, it's for the children. Potentially harmful full body scans? Sure, it's for the children. Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage? Sure, it's for the children.

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30-01-2011, 02:48 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 12:50 PM)Kar98 Wrote:  Because it doesn't say "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be reasonably infringed, and it's anybody's guess what 'reasonable' means."

If you want to play the Constitutional card, then let's examine the entire text of the Amendment:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

At no point in in there does it state that you have the right to own a gun simply because you want one. It actually does not clearly say anything about when you can own guns but the part about a "well regulated Militia" certain implies that what they had in mind was a state militia and the people having the right to be part of those.

The Constitution actually prohibits a federal standing army. Article I sets forth the powers of the Congress and Section VIII states, amongst other things:

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Now, the Constitution does explicitly grant the Federal gov the obligation to create a Navy, and that nuance goes even further towards explaining their thinking. In the late 18th century a navy was a defense mechanism and a means of protecting trade. A standing army, on the other hand, was a tool of oppression. So, while not 100% clear what they meant, the evidence within the document, as well as the various notes and diaries kept during the debates, seem to indicate that the actual intent of the 2nd Amendment was to ensure the states could protect themselves and that they could arm their people.

And, if we want to get really crazy and get into the original intent, then the original intent was that the people be able to own single shot flint locks and muskets because those were the arms of the time.

Sorry, but despite how often the NRA makes it, that argument really, really does not hold water.

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30-01-2011, 05:13 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 02:48 PM)BnW Wrote:  And, if we want to get really crazy and get into the original intent, then the original intent was that the people be able to own single shot flint locks and muskets because those were the arms of the time.

Well, go crazy then. Nobody needs to own a, or even several!, machines that can send your speech to millions of people at once, at lightspeed. Freedom of speech really should only apply to the methods of the late 1700s.

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30-01-2011, 06:35 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 05:13 PM)Kar98 Wrote:  Well, go crazy then. Nobody needs to own a, or even several!, machines that can send your speech to millions of people at once, at lightspeed. Freedom of speech really should only apply to the methods of the late 1700s.

The internet provides a new vehicle for transmission but the written and printed word still existed in the 18th century. The internet is not what's protected, but the speech transmitted on it is. Nothing new under the sun with the printed word.

And, I was just making a point. I do not advocate that we read the Constitution only by what was available in 1787, as I think that is an insane way to manage a government.

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30-01-2011, 08:59 PM
RE: Firearms/Second Amendment
(30-01-2011 02:48 PM)BnW Wrote:  At no point in in there does it state that you have the right to own a gun simply because you want one.

Doesn't say I can't either. Big Grin

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

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