Poll: Should guns be legal for civilians to own?
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Hunting rifles only
All guns according to current US laws
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Firearms?
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19-12-2011, 10:48 AM
RE: Firearms?
Dear Folks,

I am a little surprised to see this subject up for debate on this site but hey, a healthy debate is a healthy debate. As I have seen USA & UK comparisons I will use the statistics of both countries - as gun laws in each are probable polarised at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Being for or against gun control is I believe totally irrelevant, the statistics speak for themselves – which are as follows: (2010 figures ie latest available)

In the UK there were a total of 642 murders, of which 40 were attributed to firearms.
In the US there were a total of 12,996 murders of which 8,775 attributed to firearms.

For brevity I have not included injuries or healthcare/insurance cost statistics, and even with population differences US = UK x 3.5 the differences are off the scale of comparison.

Notes:
1) Of the 642 unlawful killings in the UK, a staggering 110 were due to female genital mutilation – a subject far more relevant to this Forum and one which I would like to see addressed.
2) The US statistics do not include California who withheld FBI Data citing state Freedom of Information laws

Source USA http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...e-us-state
UK Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/11 - Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 (Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10)

As a UK citizen I have no axe to grind on US gun laws, but for all the debate and some of the puerile arguments I have heard used on both sides ie ‘’guns don’t kill people – people kill people’’ (pathetic) and how nice the Swiss are, it all comes down to one very simple question, Which is:

Is any society today willing to silently bear witness to the slaughter of 8700+ of its own citizens, ie almost 3 x 9/11’s – Every Year?

If the answer in the US is “Yes”, then maintain the status quo
If the answer ‘’No’’ then for Fucks sake do something about it

As a bearer/user of arms for big chunks of my working life, I fully understand that there are certain weapons designed purely to kill and maim in the most efficient manner possible, mainly fully auto rifles or sub machine pistols which have no hunting or sport uses - May I suggest a simple law backed questionnaire pre purchase requirement of these weapons containing a single question “Do you need this weapon” and if the answer is yes – then the purchaser is automatically disqualified from ownership

All best and happy hunting

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19-12-2011, 12:18 PM
RE: Firearms?
A huge portion of firearm deaths in the US is due to gang and/or drug activity. In other words, people who are going to have firearms regardless of the laws. Unless you think gang bangers and drug dealers are interested in respecting gun laws when they clearly break all the other laws...

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19-12-2011, 12:20 PM
RE: Firearms?
(19-12-2011 10:48 AM)Kevuchka Wrote:  Let's add in the statistics for Switzerland - lots of privately owned automatic weapons, very few gun deaths.

Also, the Second Amendment is about military arms, not hunting rifles or target shooting.

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19-12-2011, 07:42 PM
RE: Firearms?
(19-12-2011 10:48 AM)Kevuchka Wrote:  Dear Folks,

I am a little surprised to see this subject up for debate on this site but hey, a healthy debate is a healthy debate. As I have seen USA & UK comparisons I will use the statistics of both countries - as gun laws in each are probable polarised at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why? We post about a lot of different things, many not strictly related to religion. I was mostly curious because there is a strong cultural connection between guns & God (specifically, the Christian God). I was curious if there really was a correlation or not and it seems to me that there isn't - the results aren't scientific of course, but I'm definitely surprised "full auto" is in the lead! Tongue

Being for or against gun control is I believe totally irrelevant, the statistics speak for themselves – which are as follows: (2010 figures ie latest available)

In the UK there were a total of 642 murders, of which 40 were attributed to firearms.

In the US there were a total of 12,996 murders of which 8,775 attributed to firearms.



For brevity I have not included injuries or healthcare/insurance cost statistics, and even with population differences US = UK x 3.5 the differences are off the scale of comparison.

I'd argue that the difference is mainly cultural, rather than gun laws. If you want to control for culture, try examining the different murder rates by state vs. strictness of gun control laws. Not a perfect study, since culture still varies somewhat and smuggling guns across state lines is easier than across national borders, but it's still a useful study.


Notes:
1) Of the 642 unlawful killings in the UK, a staggering 110 were due to female genital mutilation – a subject far more relevant to this Forum and one which I would like to see addressed.
2) The US statistics do not include California who withheld FBI Data citing state Freedom of Information laws

Source USA http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...e-us-state
UK Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/11 - Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 (Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10)

As a UK citizen I have no axe to grind on US gun laws, but for all the debate and some of the puerile arguments I have heard used on both sides ie ‘’guns don’t kill people – people kill people’’ (pathetic) and how nice the Swiss are, it all comes down to one very simple question, Which is:

Is any society today willing to silently bear witness to the slaughter of 8700+ of its own citizens, ie almost 3 x 9/11’s – Every Year?

If the answer in the US is “Yes”, then maintain the status quo
If the answer ‘’No’’ then for Fucks sake do something about it

Problem is, what? No easy solution even if you are looking to outright ban guns entirely. There are millions upon millions out there, many unregistered. Ammunition is stockpiled and handloaded by many (nutters, but that's the problem), so cutting that off won't eliminate the problem. Then there's the fact that guns could still get smuggled from elsewhere fairly easily (US has a lot of border mileage to secure - there are going to be places to sneak weapons/ammo in).

Again, I believe the problem (& solution) is cultural. We have way too many youths falling prey to gang culture. Then we have situations where citizens are so afraid of the gangsters that they won't inform the police or even file a report of a crime for fear of getting harmed by the gang. Detroit is a great example of this:





(Long video, I know)]/b]

As a bearer/user of arms for big chunks of my working life, I fully understand that there are certain weapons designed purely to kill and maim in the most efficient manner possible, mainly fully auto rifles or sub machine pistols which have no hunting or sport uses - May I suggest a simple law backed questionnaire pre purchase requirement of these weapons containing a single question “Do you need this weapon” and if the answer is yes – then the purchaser is automatically disqualified from ownership

[b]That would be figured out within a few hours... Everyone would answer "no, but I want it for x reason."


All best and happy hunting

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19-12-2011, 10:46 PM
RE: Firearms?
Police Officer in the UK

Question:
How do you tell the difference between a British Police Officer, an Australian Police Officer and an American Police Officer?

Answer:
First - Lets pose the following question:

You're on duty by yourself walking on a deserted street late at night.
Suddenly, an armed man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and lunges at you.
You are carrying a Glock .40, and you are an expert shot, however you have only a split second to react before he reaches you.

What do you do?


BRITISH POLICE OFFICER:

Firstly the officer must consider the man's Human Rights.
1) Does the man look poor or oppressed?
2) Is he newly arrived in this country and does not yet understand the law?
3) Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
4) Am I dressed provocatively?
5) Could I run away?
6) Could I possibly swing my gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
7) Should I try and negotiate with him to discuss his wrong doings?
8) Does the Glock have appropriate safety built into it?
9) Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society?
10) Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?
11) If I were to grab his knees and hold on, would he still want to stab and kill me?
12) If I raise my gun and he turns and runs away, do I get blamed if he falls over, knocks his head and kills himself? .
13) If I shoot and wound him, and lose the subsequent court case, does he have the opportunity to sue me, cost me my job, my credibility and the loss of my family home?

AUSTRALIAN POLICE OFFICER:

BANG!


AMERICAN POLICE OFFICER:

BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! 'click'....
(Sergeant arrives at scene later and remarks: 'Nice grouping!)

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20-12-2011, 12:49 AM
RE: Firearms?
The only way you're getting my gun is if you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.




I don't really have a gun, but I just always thought it would be cool to say some time when people who don't know me might think I'm actually a badass gun owner.

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20-12-2011, 11:20 AM
RE: Firearms?
(19-12-2011 07:42 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 10:48 AM)Kevuchka Wrote:  Dear Folks,

I am a little surprised to see this subject up for debate on this site but hey, a healthy debate is a healthy debate. As I have seen USA & UK comparisons I will use the statistics of both countries - as gun laws in each are probable polarised at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why? We post about a lot of different things, many not strictly related to religion. I was mostly curious because there is a strong cultural connection between guns & God (specifically, the Christian God). I was curious if there really was a correlation or not and it seems to me that there isn't - the results aren't scientific of course, but I'm definitely surprised "full auto" is in the lead! Tongue

Being for or against gun control is I believe totally irrelevant, the statistics speak for themselves – which are as follows: (2010 figures ie latest available)

In the UK there were a total of 642 murders, of which 40 were attributed to firearms.

In the US there were a total of 12,996 murders of which 8,775 attributed to firearms.



For brevity I have not included injuries or healthcare/insurance cost statistics, and even with population differences US = UK x 3.5 the differences are off the scale of comparison.

I'd argue that the difference is mainly cultural, rather than gun laws. If you want to control for culture, try examining the different murder rates by state vs. strictness of gun control laws. Not a perfect study, since culture still varies somewhat and smuggling guns across state lines is easier than across national borders, but it's still a useful study.


Notes:
1) Of the 642 unlawful killings in the UK, a staggering 110 were due to female genital mutilation – a subject far more relevant to this Forum and one which I would like to see addressed.
2) The US statistics do not include California who withheld FBI Data citing state Freedom of Information laws

Source USA http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...e-us-state
UK Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/11 - Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 (Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10)

As a UK citizen I have no axe to grind on US gun laws, but for all the debate and some of the puerile arguments I have heard used on both sides ie ‘’guns don’t kill people – people kill people’’ (pathetic) and how nice the Swiss are, it all comes down to one very simple question, Which is:

Is any society today willing to silently bear witness to the slaughter of 8700+ of its own citizens, ie almost 3 x 9/11’s – Every Year?

If the answer in the US is “Yes”, then maintain the status quo
If the answer ‘’No’’ then for Fucks sake do something about it

Problem is, what? No easy solution even if you are looking to outright ban guns entirely. There are millions upon millions out there, many unregistered. Ammunition is stockpiled and handloaded by many (nutters, but that's the problem), so cutting that off won't eliminate the problem. Then there's the fact that guns could still get smuggled from elsewhere fairly easily (US has a lot of border mileage to secure - there are going to be places to sneak weapons/ammo in).

Again, I believe the problem (& solution) is cultural. We have way too many youths falling prey to gang culture. Then we have situations where citizens are so afraid of the gangsters that they won't inform the police or even file a report of a crime for fear of getting harmed by the gang. Detroit is a great example of this:





(Long video, I know)]/b]

As a bearer/user of arms for big chunks of my working life, I fully understand that there are certain weapons designed purely to kill and maim in the most efficient manner possible, mainly fully auto rifles or sub machine pistols which have no hunting or sport uses - May I suggest a simple law backed questionnaire pre purchase requirement of these weapons containing a single question “Do you need this weapon” and if the answer is yes – then the purchaser is automatically disqualified from ownership

[b]That would be figured out within a few hours... Everyone would answer "no, but I want it for x reason."


All best and happy hunting

Hi Guys and Gals,

Lot of emotion on this subject, and thank you Azaraith for some enlightening input.

America cannot be compared to Switzerland with a community protection culture going back to 1291. The Swiss do not have an army, the Swiss ARE the army. Gun crime in Switzerland is so low that statistics are not kept, however the Swiss have the highest level of suicides in Europe, almost totally by the “family gun”. So they appear unwilling to use weapons against fellow man, yet are more eager than most to use them against themselves.

I stand by my statistics and my stance that gun control/or lack of is irrelevant, societal education is key. Banning guns is as effective as the Prohibition, however America should still strive to reach the same suicide rates as Switzerland!

You sprogs won’t remember that 30 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to light a cigarette in a Lift, can you imagine doing that today? Let alone a restaurant, or an aircraft? It takes a generation to change attitudes – but the change has to start somewhere, and until that process begins then America is guilty of accepting 3 x 9/11’s being subjected upon its own citizens, By its own citizens, without charge.

So it's your choice boyz and girlz.

Oh and fuck the vegetarians, our species did not get to where it is today by eating Tofu. Shoot game by all means – as long as you EAT it, better not do it for fun or sport – this is not “greenwash”, but as we know the balance of nature regulates itself and that balance should not be disturbed by ourselves for no good reason – plus hey, everything is someone’s little kid right. Am I sounding religious – no bollocks, just a respectful Thinking Atheist who cares, loves life and respects everyone and everything in it.

Great discussion, some good minds here.
=
Cheers:
Kevuchka

god hides within the gaps of human knowledge - his hiding places are getting smaller. Welcome Higgs Boson
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20-12-2011, 12:09 PM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 12:14 PM by Azaraith.)
RE: Firearms?
(20-12-2011 11:20 AM)Kevuchka Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 07:42 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(19-12-2011 10:48 AM)Kevuchka Wrote:  Dear Folks,

I am a little surprised to see this subject up for debate on this site but hey, a healthy debate is a healthy debate. As I have seen USA & UK comparisons I will use the statistics of both countries - as gun laws in each are probable polarised at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Why? We post about a lot of different things, many not strictly related to religion. I was mostly curious because there is a strong cultural connection between guns & God (specifically, the Christian God). I was curious if there really was a correlation or not and it seems to me that there isn't - the results aren't scientific of course, but I'm definitely surprised "full auto" is in the lead! Tongue

Being for or against gun control is I believe totally irrelevant, the statistics speak for themselves – which are as follows: (2010 figures ie latest available)

In the UK there were a total of 642 murders, of which 40 were attributed to firearms.

In the US there were a total of 12,996 murders of which 8,775 attributed to firearms.



For brevity I have not included injuries or healthcare/insurance cost statistics, and even with population differences US = UK x 3.5 the differences are off the scale of comparison.

I'd argue that the difference is mainly cultural, rather than gun laws. If you want to control for culture, try examining the different murder rates by state vs. strictness of gun control laws. Not a perfect study, since culture still varies somewhat and smuggling guns across state lines is easier than across national borders, but it's still a useful study.


Notes:
1) Of the 642 unlawful killings in the UK, a staggering 110 were due to female genital mutilation – a subject far more relevant to this Forum and one which I would like to see addressed.
2) The US statistics do not include California who withheld FBI Data citing state Freedom of Information laws

Source USA http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/...e-us-state
UK Home Office Statistical Bulletin 01/11 - Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2009/10 (Supplementary Volume 2 to Crime in England and Wales 2009/10)

As a UK citizen I have no axe to grind on US gun laws, but for all the debate and some of the puerile arguments I have heard used on both sides ie ‘’guns don’t kill people – people kill people’’ (pathetic) and how nice the Swiss are, it all comes down to one very simple question, Which is:

Is any society today willing to silently bear witness to the slaughter of 8700+ of its own citizens, ie almost 3 x 9/11’s – Every Year?

If the answer in the US is “Yes”, then maintain the status quo
If the answer ‘’No’’ then for Fucks sake do something about it

Problem is, what? No easy solution even if you are looking to outright ban guns entirely. There are millions upon millions out there, many unregistered. Ammunition is stockpiled and handloaded by many (nutters, but that's the problem), so cutting that off won't eliminate the problem. Then there's the fact that guns could still get smuggled from elsewhere fairly easily (US has a lot of border mileage to secure - there are going to be places to sneak weapons/ammo in).

Again, I believe the problem (& solution) is cultural. We have way too many youths falling prey to gang culture. Then we have situations where citizens are so afraid of the gangsters that they won't inform the police or even file a report of a crime for fear of getting harmed by the gang. Detroit is a great example of this:





(Long video, I know)]/b]

As a bearer/user of arms for big chunks of my working life, I fully understand that there are certain weapons designed purely to kill and maim in the most efficient manner possible, mainly fully auto rifles or sub machine pistols which have no hunting or sport uses - May I suggest a simple law backed questionnaire pre purchase requirement of these weapons containing a single question “Do you need this weapon” and if the answer is yes – then the purchaser is automatically disqualified from ownership

[b]That would be figured out within a few hours... Everyone would answer "no, but I want it for x reason."


All best and happy hunting

Hi Guys and Gals,

Lot of emotion on this subject, and thank you Azaraith for some enlightening input.

America cannot be compared to Switzerland with a community protection culture going back to 1291. The Swiss do not have an army, the Swiss ARE the army. Gun crime in Switzerland is so low that statistics are not kept, however the Swiss have the highest level of suicides in Europe, almost totally by the “family gun”. So they appear unwilling to use weapons against fellow man, yet are more eager than most to use them against themselves.

I stand by my statistics and my stance that gun control/or lack of is irrelevant, societal education is key. Banning guns is as effective as the Prohibition, however America should still strive to reach the same suicide rates as Switzerland!

You sprogs won’t remember that 30 years ago it was perfectly acceptable to light a cigarette in a Lift, can you imagine doing that today? Let alone a restaurant, or an aircraft? It takes a generation to change attitudes – but the change has to start somewhere, and until that process begins then America is guilty of accepting 3 x 9/11’s being subjected upon its own citizens, By its own citizens, without charge.

So it's your choice boyz and girlz.

Oh and fuck the vegetarians, our species did not get to where it is today by eating Tofu. Shoot game by all means – as long as you EAT it, better not do it for fun or sport – this is not “greenwash”, but as we know the balance of nature regulates itself and that balance should not be disturbed by ourselves for no good reason – plus hey, everything is someone’s little kid right. Am I sounding religious – no bollocks, just a respectful Thinking Atheist who cares, loves life and respects everyone and everything in it.

Great discussion, some good minds here.
=
Cheers:
Kevuchka

I believe we are actually arguing approximately the same point lol - I was using Switzerland as an example of how culture makes a bigger difference than laws on guns. I definitely wouldn't recommend handing out full auto guns to all US citizens lol. Didn't know that about Switzerland's suicide rate though, how sad.

Definite +1 on eating (or selling for food) anything that you shoot. One of my coworkers is the trophy hunting type and it almost makes me hate him - he hunted a friggin giraffe on a "game preserve" on TX and bears in Russia. :'( Food, ok. "Macho/cool" definite no. The bear was RUNNING AWAY from him...

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20-12-2011, 02:48 PM
RE: Firearms?
Cheers Az,
And yes we are on the same page. On a trip to Sakhalin Russia the “boss” took me bear hunting in mountains above Yuzhno, 5 double shots of vodka to kick off and an AK in hand, all macho shit, fuckin bear (like your friends running away) did not stand a chance, emptied a full mag of 7.62 on auto into its back - if he’d remembered an RPG he would have used it..

On the trek down – nothing moved, no life, now sound. It had all been shot. Land Cruiser back to town my seat had a new covering – it was the skin of the bear just shot, back to my government lodge had to bin half my clothes as covered in lice and fleas. Everything else fuckin stank. All in all not a good day out. Beware of Russian hospitality.

Cheers:
K

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21-12-2011, 07:09 PM
RE: Firearms?
(20-12-2011 12:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Didn't know that about Switzerland's suicide rate though, how sad.

I like to think they are unusually enlightened rather than unusually depressed.

(20-12-2011 12:09 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  Definite +1 on eating (or selling for food) anything that you shoot.

Or anything you happen to hit with your car. I feel obligated to stop and check on it. If it's dead and I didn't burst the gut poisoning the meat, I kinda feel obliged to eat it. If it ain't dead, I'm conflicted. If I kill it I'm gonna feel obliged to eat it, if I don't it's on its own but with a severe disadvantage, but hey shit happens. If it's still alive with a busted gut I just run over it again and move along.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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