First GOP Debate!

[cactus]

[RocketSurgeon76]

I've had that discussion about "socialists" with a Ukranian friend of mine in the real world, a few years back. After a long discussion, came to realize that what he meant by it (Soviet-style) and what I meant by it were two completely different things. After more discussion, came to realize (both of us) that what happens under Capitalism is almost as bad, except it "outsources" the abuse to other agencies (e.g. insurance companies, college loans, unregulated landlords, etc) which eat up your income as surely as the most serious non-communist socialist regime could ever dream.

When the wealthy get to make the laws, the phrase "you must make your wealth without breaking any laws" becomes a sick mockery.

[EvolutionKills]

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 02:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  To be fair, the LDS Church Welfare Department does provide meaningful charity work. They recently built some 1500 housing units and gave them to the homeless. Utah's homeless population dropped by 72%. How did they do this? By redistributing wealth from the rich through their tithes to the poor. I don't think Alla realizes that the LDS is Robin Hood. Alla's not even a good Mormon let alone a good Christian. You're going to hell Alla, I'll save you a seat.

LDS Church did NOT rob me and all Her members.

Oh, and those mandatory 10% tithes required for active members of the church? You cannot both be a Mormon 'in good standing' and not pay the church it's due.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  This is what Robin Hood did.

Context shitbag, context.

Robin Hood operated in medieval times, when landed nobility and serfdom were the norm. Robin Hood stole from the rich nobility, who they themselves stole everything first from the serfs below them. The fact that serfdom was the legal status quo didn't make it any more justified. The serfs didn't get to choose their lords, there were no elections or representative government or petition of grievances.

Does it surprise me that you are entirely incapable of nuance? Fuck no, you're as dense as a brick.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Members give donations from the heart. I give it from heart. I want to help those who poor and needy. I do it all the time.
But if I give because I am FORCED I do NOT do good. It is NOT my choice.

You already do it all the time, and they're called taxes. You consent by living within the boundaries of your country, and hopefully you have a means of petitioning your government so that you have a voice in how those taxes are adjudicated.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is big difference between stinking socialist and LDS people.

You don't fucking say? You mean to tell me there are differences between one broad generalization of a religion and another of a political ideology.

Will wonders never cease?

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  We do not rob and then donate we SACRIFICE and this is OUR choice. From our hearts.

Except for that mandatory aforementioned 10% tithe, and the taxes you pay.

So what are you now, an anarchist? Down with all governments or anything else that might demand compensation for the services it provides?

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 02:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46
That Jesus fellow was an angry commie bastard with the RADICAL idea of SHARING. (caps so Alla can undeRRRRRstand my English better).

No, my friend GirlyMan.

Commies take away from you.

Some can, sure. But then guess what? They're not being very good communists, instead turning into just another form of oligarchy.

See Also: the U.S.S.R.

ProTip: The former soviet socialist republics never actually made it to communism.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  They will squeeze you until you have no blood and no air.

This is currently what the 1% are doing to the other 99% in the United States right now.

Yet between the two of us, which one is defending their right to be greedy shitbags?

You are.

They just labels themselves as 'businessmen' and you leap to their defense while they simultaneously fuck you in the ass and take all your shit, because you're too busy fighting figments of your imagination.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Those who visited Jesus didn't rob anybody. They were giving what was theirs.

Nobody visited Jesus, he never existed.

But according to the Gospels, he was a radical socialist.

Free healthcare? Socialist.

Rich give all they have to the poor? Radically socialist.

I don't want, nor do I advocate, for anything even close to what Jesus demands from his own followers. I'd like to see a more even distribution of wealth, something far from the current status of 1% owning 95% of everything. According to Jesus, that 1% should give up everything they have if they have any intentions of being good Christians and getting into Heaven, so my goals of 'lets try to reach European norms of a <20-to-1 pay gap from CEO to worker versus the current >1000-to-1 seen in the US' seems relatively mild in comparison.

Yet somehow, I'm the asshole, when Jesus appears to be a more radical socialist than anything I've come close to supporting.

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  It is wrong to even compare socialist radical idea of sharing with TRUE idea of sharing.

Oh, do tell...

(10-08-2015 06:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  You share what is yours and NOT what belongs to your rich neighbor.
Do you even see the difference?

You are a massively stupid cunt.

Take two citizens, both who live under the same laws and the same government; however one is very wealthy and the other is not. So the richer citizen spends some of his wealth and buys the political favor of politicians, and they in turn pass laws more favorable to the rich guy. Things like changes in the tax code, offloading more taxes onto the poorer citizens while giving tax breaks to the richer ones; this allows them to hoard more wealth, thus allowing them to buy more political favors, and the cycle continues. Allowed to continue unchecked and you'll see the massive wealth inequality currently seen in the United States.

Why do you have no problem with that? Where in that scenario do the poor 'give from the heart' voluntarily to their already wealthier neighbors?

All I want to do is have the government stop taking all of the money from the have-nots while giving tax breaks and incentives to the people who already have more than enough wealth. The people who are more successful, who can afford to share more, should share more than those who already have so little. Governments already tax their citizens and redistribute the wealth into things like infrastructure, education, and social services; that's just how all modern governments work.

All I want is for things to be more evenly distributed, instead of the poor shouldering all of the burden while the wealthy gain all of the benefits.

Unfortunately this is a radical departure from the status quo in the United States. This is why socialism is smeared as such a dirty word, because the current system (and those invested in it's continuation) is such a blatantly stacked deck of unfair bullshit, that an elementary student could call it out.

If you're against 'wealth redistribution', then you should be screaming with me from the towers; because the current system redistributes the wealth from the hands of the poor and into the hands of the wealthy.

But as per usual, you lack the reason to connect the dots like a sensible human being. You're more interested in fighting off the boogeyman of 'socialism' while gladly being the lapdog of the powerful and wealthy, eager for the scraps that fall off their table and indignant at those who seek to take back what is theirs.

You would have made an excellent Uncle Tom.

[cjlr]

(10-08-2015 10:09 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I've had that discussion about "socialists" with a Ukranian friend of mine in the real world, a few years back. After a long discussion, came to realize that what he meant by it (Soviet-style) and what I meant by it were two completely different things. After more discussion, came to realize (both of us) that what happens under Capitalism is almost as bad, except it "outsources" the abuse to other agencies (e.g. insurance companies, college loans, unregulated landlords, etc) which eat up your income as surely as the most serious non-communist socialist regime could ever dream.

When the wealthy get to make the laws, the phrase "you must make your wealth without breaking any laws" becomes a sick mockery.

Have you ever heard that old post-Soviet joke?

"Everything they told us about the wonders of Communism was a lie. Unfortunately, everything they told us about the horrors of capitalism was true."

[DLJ]

(10-08-2015 02:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 01:57 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  They use that wealth to build temples and line their own pockets, not feeding the poor; even though the basis of religious tax-exemption is the idea that church would provide charitable work.

To be fair, the LDS Church Welfare Department does provide meaningful charity work. They recently built some 1500 housing units and gave them to the homeless. Utah's homeless population dropped by 72%. How did they do this? By redistributing wealth from the rich through their tithes to the poor. I don't think Alla realizes that the LDS is Robin Hood. Alla's not even a good Mormon let alone a good Christian. You're going to hell Alla, I'll save you a seat.

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” - Matthew 25:31-46

That Jesus fellow was an angry commie bastard with the RADICAL idea of SHARING. (caps so Alla can undeRRRRRstand my English better).

Matthew 25:31-46 tl;dr version...

Saved, shaved, shorn, sharing sheep; damned kids!

[Alla]

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Have you ever heard that old post-Soviet joke?
"Everything they told us about the wonders of Communism was a lie.

what wonders were lie? be more specific, please.

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Unfortunately, everything they told us about the horrors of capitalism was true."

horror of capitalism are nothing if compare them with horrors of communism.
you may be poor in capitalist country but at least you can bark/complain about it.
in communist country you are poor but they won't let you even bark about it.
those who dream about socialism are ignorant people. they do not that socialism will not work in the long run.

In the USSR I would never have what I have now in this "horrible" capitalist America.
Only lazy or uneducated people, or people who are not motivated, or drug addicts are the ones who can not have any success in the USA.
When I came to America I didn't speak English, I didn't have family and friends and I didn't have money. I was poor.
But I didn't come to America to be poor. I had a goal. I achieved my goal. I had to learn, I had to work.
America is the land of opportunities to those who want to learn and to work.
Those who do not work/and learn are on welfare.
Socialist country will never give me this kind of opportunity.
Capitalism is not always fair system. But it is better system then socialist system.
In socialist system you can not have increase. In capitalist system you can have it IF you are not lazy or uneducated.

[Alla]

(10-08-2015 10:28 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Yet somehow, I'm the asshole, when Jesus appears to be a more radical socialist than anything I've come close to supporting.

You are not asshole, you are ignorant and naive. I will tell you why in a minute.

(10-08-2015 10:28 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Take two citizens, both who live under the same laws and the same government; however one is very wealthy and the other is not. So the richer citizen spends some of his wealth and buys the political favor of politicians, and they in turn pass laws more favorable to the rich guy. Things like changes in the tax code, offloading more taxes onto the poorer citizens while giving tax breaks to the richer ones; this allows them to hoard more wealth, thus allowing them to buy more political favors, and the cycle continues. Allowed to continue unchecked and you'll see the massive wealth inequality currently seen in the United States.
Why do you have no problem with that?

I have a problem with this. But I understand that as soon as socialist who promotes income equality gets power he/she becomes corrupt. Socialist who wants to change the world and gets the power is greedy person. He might appear as really nice and kind person. Greedy person will make all people equally POOR but him and his friends and relatives will live like Gods in paradise.
You will never change this. But you (fool) do not get it.
You can only dream about fair society. It will never happened in THIS world when there are greedy people who seek power.
they will promise you what you like. But they will lie to you.

(10-08-2015 10:28 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  All I want is for things to be more evenly distributed, instead of the poor shouldering all of the burden while the wealthy gain all of the benefits.

Obama didn't help with income inequality problem, did he?
Under Obama poor are more poor, rich are more rich. And Sanders will be the same. But only naïve fools like you will TRUST him.
I am not uncle Tom but you are naive fool.
Yes, believe that Sanders will build you fair society.
We all might become equally poor but Sanders will be much richer than you and me together.

[Chas]

(14-08-2015 01:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Have you ever heard that old post-Soviet joke?
"Everything they told us about the wonders of Communism was a lie.

what wonders were lie? be more specific, please.

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Unfortunately, everything they told us about the horrors of capitalism was true."

horror of capitalism are nothing if compare them with horrors of communism.
you may be poor in capitalist country but at least you can bark/complain about it.
in communist country you are poor but they won't let you even bark about it.
those who dream about socialism are ignorant people. they do not that socialism will not work in the long run.

In the USSR I would never have what I have now in this "horrible" capitalist America.
Only lazy or uneducated people, or people who are not motivated, or drug addicts are the ones who can not have any success in the USA.
When I came to America I didn't speak English, I didn't have family and friends and I didn't have money. I was poor.
But I didn't come to America to be poor. I had a goal. I achieved my goal. I had to learn, I had to work.
America is the land of opportunities to those who want to learn and to work.
Those who do not work/and learn are on welfare.
Socialist country will never give me this kind of opportunity.
Capitalism is not always fair system. But it is better system then socialist system.
In socialist system you can not have increase. In capitalist system you can have it IF you are not lazy or uneducated.

The USSR was socialist in name only. It was a totalitarian oligarchy. So, there's that.

[Chas]

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  

(10-08-2015 10:09 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I've had that discussion about "socialists" with a Ukranian friend of mine in the real world, a few years back. After a long discussion, came to realize that what he meant by it (Soviet-style) and what I meant by it were two completely different things. After more discussion, came to realize (both of us) that what happens under Capitalism is almost as bad, except it "outsources" the abuse to other agencies (e.g. insurance companies, college loans, unregulated landlords, etc) which eat up your income as surely as the most serious non-communist socialist regime could ever dream.

When the wealthy get to make the laws, the phrase "you must make your wealth without breaking any laws" becomes a sick mockery.

Have you ever heard that old post-Soviet joke?

"Everything they told us about the wonders of Communism was a lie. Unfortunately, everything they told us about the horrors of capitalism was true."

And "Capitalism is a dog eat dog system. In Communism, it's the other way around."

[cjlr]

(14-08-2015 01:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Have you ever heard that old post-Soviet joke?
"Everything they told us about the wonders of Communism was a lie.

what wonders were lie? be more specific, please.

Maybe the part about everybody being free equals in a democratic society? Because that wasn't particularly true.

(14-08-2015 01:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  

(11-08-2015 08:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Unfortunately, everything they told us about the horrors of capitalism was true."

horror of capitalism are nothing if compare them with horrors of communism.
you may be poor in capitalist country but at least you can bark/complain about it.
in communist country you are poor but they won't let you even bark about it.
those who dream about socialism are ignorant people. they do not that socialism will not work in the long run.

You know that dictatorships don't give a shit about ideology beyond lip service, right?

Of course, China is still nominally Communist, and they've increased their material wealth by an order of magnitude in the past generation.
(not that authoritarian corporatism is anything remotely like a free market, of course)

(14-08-2015 01:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  In the USSR I would never have what I have now in this "horrible" capitalist America.
Only lazy or uneducated people, or people who are not motivated, or drug addicts are the ones who can not have any success in the USA.
When I came to America I didn't speak English, I didn't have family and friends and I didn't have money. I was poor.
But I didn't come to America to be poor. I had a goal. I achieved my goal. I had to learn, I had to work.
America is the land of opportunities to those who want to learn and to work.
Those who do not work/and learn are on welfare.
Socialist country will never give me this kind of opportunity.
Capitalism is not always fair system. But it is better system then socialist system.
In socialist system you can not have increase. In capitalist system you can have it IF you are not lazy or uneducated.

No society on Earth has ever come close to true equality of opportunity. I'm glad things have worked out for you, but that is not the reality for millions of people.