First GOP Debate!
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15-08-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
American misunderstanding (thanks to a lot of capitalist propaganda over decades) of what socialism is/entails always blows me away. What happened in the Soviet bloc countries was not socialism or communism, even though it was called it. It was a theocracy of Leninism, which succeeded as all religion-based governments do: by executing those who stood in its way (see, e.g., Trotsky). Making false equivalences helps no one, and you should really stop, Alla. Especially since you should know better.

All governments are to varying degrees socialist, in the respect you use it, Alla. Governments are MADE to take our tax money and do things with it that the private sector simply won't do because there's not a short-term, direct profit to be made from it. Education is one example, as is the construction of roads/bridges/infrastructure. We pay farm subsidies so you can afford to eat, state college subsidies and grants so you can (barely) afford to go to college, grants so scientific research can advance in ways that have no immediately-obvious profit motive, and so on and so on.

While I have no doubt that the US government is bloated and inefficient, it's what I'd expect of (by far) the largest economy on the planet's government, and when Americans start talking about the idea that "sharing is theft", they're just acting as puppets for the super-wealthy who can afford all the things the rest of us need those subsidies to provide in order to become anything other than bottom-of-the-barrel. If we sat here and cataloged for you all the ways in which the government made your comfy lifestyle possible without you even knowing it, it's all we'd ever have time to discuss!

When a person buys into the propaganda so completely that they start hallucinating a belief that they "did it on their own", it flies in the face of every bit of the evidence, and deserves nothing but scorn. Alla, I highly, highly recommend you read the book What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America (c.2004), by historian Thomas Frank, which is a decade old, but does a good job of explaining how people vote against their own interests through the effects of propaganda. I think you really need to understand some things.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-08-2015, 10:37 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 07:50 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:44 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  ... I don't see how these two facts correlate.

Do not expect from a stupid woman Facepalm to say something intelligent or logical.
O! it feels so good to call stupid woman what she really is. Only a gentle man would do this. Like Trump, for example. Or atheist feels good when he calls conservative or Christian woman "stupid". That's very nice.


You are stupid, your every post here is nothing more but another pile of evidence on the already massive heap attesting to that fact.

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15-08-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:32 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  American misunderstanding (thanks to a lot of capitalist propaganda over decades) of what socialism is/entails always blows me away. What happened in the Soviet bloc countries was not socialism or communism, even though it was called it. It was a theocracy of Leninism, which succeeded as all religion-based governments do: by executing those who stood in its way (see, e.g., Trotsky). Making false equivalences helps no one, and you should really stop, Alla. Especially since you should know better.


Don't have books with me so I can not consult them. But why thing that happened behind Iron Curtain can not be called socialism? There was governmental ownership of means of production and if I remember right unequal pay. Goods certainly weren't distributed equal.

Indeed marxism-leninism was religion, though it used not only terror but genuine enthusiasm and subterfuge. I'm curious though why you mention Trotsky? He was victim yes, but far from blameless. His death wasn't tragedy, I think he got what he deserved.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-08-2015, 10:48 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 10:51 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:44 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Don't have books with me so I can not consult them. But why thing that happen behind Iron Curtain can not be called socialism? There was governmental ownership of means of production and if I remember right unequal pay. Goods certainly weren't distributed equal.

Indeed marxism-leninism was religion, though it used not only terror but genuine enthusiasm and subterfuge. I'm curious though why you mention Trotsky? He was victim yes, but far from blameless. His death wasn't tragedy, I think he got what he deserved.

Socialism is social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, not hoarding control of them them both for the benefit of the political elite (what we saw happen in the U.S.S.R.). A totalitarian oligarchy calling itself a socialist republic does not simply make it so. How many fascist terror groups or states call themselves 'democratic' this or that? Does calling itself the Democratic People's Republic of Korea make North Korea a democracy?

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15-08-2015, 10:56 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 10:59 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:48 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 10:44 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Don't have books with me so I can not consult them. But why thing that happen behind Iron Curtain can not be called socialism? There was governmental ownership of means of production and if I remember right unequal pay. Goods certainly weren't distributed equal.

Indeed marxism-leninism was religion, though it used not only terror but genuine enthusiasm and subterfuge. I'm curious though why you mention Trotsky? He was victim yes, but far from blameless. His death wasn't tragedy, I think he got what he deserved.

Socialism is social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, not hoarding control of them them both for the benefit of the political elite (what we saw happen in the U.S.S.R.). A totalitarian oligarchy calling itself a socialist republic does not simply make it so. How many fascist terror groups or states call themselves 'democratic' this or that?

Going by definition I supplied it is collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods so I don't see the reason to agree with your definition.

Also there certainly was unequal distribution of goods and if I recall correctly pay according to work done.

As for fascist states - III Reich abhored democracy, Mussolini Italy also if I remember things right. Not certain about Hungary, Spain or Romania. Calling themselves democratic would be I think more in vein of states with "people democracy".

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-08-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:20 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Let's say marxism-leninism was religion (I agree). If so then it's obvious that it is opium.
I am glad that we agree on something.
(15-08-2015 10:20 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And if it is obvious why you are stating this?
Alla:But why is this Religion better than mine?
Did I say that it is better? Or it is your idiotic attempt at making straw-man?
Actually it was a rhetorical question (that is why I asked dead people for an answer)
I really wanted to ask him(Marx and his followers) this question. Why is your religion better than other religions? why are you (Karl Marx and his folowers) such hypocrites? all religions are opium, all but our Religion is not opium for the people.
I want believers of his Religion asked themselves this question.

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15-08-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:37 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 07:50 AM)Alla Wrote:  Do not expect from a stupid woman Facepalm to say something intelligent or logical.
O! it feels so good to call stupid woman what she really is. Only a gentle man would do this. Like Trump, for example. Or atheist feels good when he calls conservative or Christian woman "stupid". That's very nice.


You are stupid, your every post here is nothing more but another pile of evidence on the already massive heap attesting to that fact.

The state of your X or Y chromosomes is incidental. Drinking Beverage
Facepalm

English is my second language.
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15-08-2015, 11:02 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 11:07 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 10:48 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Socialism is social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy, not hoarding control of them them both for the benefit of the political elite (what we saw happen in the U.S.S.R.). A totalitarian oligarchy calling itself a socialist republic does not simply make it so. How many fascist terror groups or states call themselves 'democratic' this or that?

Going by definition I supplied it is collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods so I don't see the reason to agree with your definition.

As for fascist states - III Reich abhored democracy, Mussolini Italy also if I remember things right. Not certain about Hungary, Spain or Romania. Calling themselves democratic would be I think more in vein of states with "people democracy".

Did the people have a say in what was done with the means of production? No, they just swapped out one powerful elite (czars and nobility) for another (the communist party). So the means of production were hardly 'collective' in comparison to how things operated before. If you count the U.S.S.R. as being socialist, then so was serfdom in medieval Europe when all of the means of production were controlled by the landed nobility and monarchies.

Government collectivization does you no good if the government that collects everything is not responsive or accountable to the people. Your definition assumes a representative government, the U.S.S.R. was anything but.

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15-08-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 10:58 AM)Alla Wrote:  I am glad that we agree on something.

I'm not.

(15-08-2015 10:58 AM)Alla Wrote:  Actually it was a rhetorical question (that is why I asked dead people for an answer)
I really wanted to ask him(Marx and his followers) this question. Why is your religion better than other religions? why are you (Karl Marx and his folowers) such hypocrites? all religions are opium, all but our Religion is not opium for the people.
I want believers of his Religion asked themselves this question.

Neither Marx nor Lenin considered their creation to be religion so I suppose their only answer to you would be laugh.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-08-2015, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 11:17 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:02 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 10:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Going by definition I supplied it is collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods so I don't see the reason to agree with your definition.

As for fascist states - III Reich abhored democracy, Mussolini Italy also if I remember things right. Not certain about Hungary, Spain or Romania. Calling themselves democratic would be I think more in vein of states with "people democracy".

Did the people have a say in what was done with the means of production? No, they just swapped out one powerful elite (czars and nobility) for another (the communist party). So the means of production were hardly 'collective' in comparison to how things operated before. If you count the U.S.S.R. as being socialist, then so was serfdom in medieval Europe when all of the means of production were controlled by the landed nobility and monarchies.

So you don't agree with definition I supplied? No problem as I don't agree with yours. Saying it wasn't socialism doesn't mean it was something else.

There is no need of people having something to say as (according to definition I supplied) it's about gov control over means of production and distribution.

Let's say that medieval Europe was socialist. So what? It make USSR less socialist?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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