First GOP Debate!
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15-08-2015, 11:44 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  As for Trotsky, I cited him as an example of "someone who disagreed with Lenin (god) and had to be removed", not because he was a saint and/or didn't have it coming to him.
I don't think he disagreed with Lenin. I think Stalin killed Trotsky as he killed many who seemed to be a threat. Stalin saw enemies even in his own family.
Trotsky organized camps(horrible places).

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15-08-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  My point is, that your definition is so vague as to be unhelpful. When feudalism, the oligarchy of the U.S.S.R., and Denmark are all 'socialist', the term has little descriptive power or meaning.

But when USSR isn't socialist it's look like true scotsman fallacy - no true socialist would do that yet USSR did, ergo USSR wasn't socialist.

I think we could agree to disagree on this topic.

(15-08-2015 11:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It can also be argued that the U.S.S.R. was a form of state capitalism.

Sure. I heard about this, but I didn't yet read book containing such thesis.

Either words have meanings or they do not. I could call a rose a dog but it does not make it a dog. The United Soviet Socialist Republic was United and Soviet but not so much a republic in any real way and was far closer to a state run oligarchy than Socialist.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-08-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But when USSR isn't socialist it's look like true scotsman fallacy - no true socialist would do that yet USSR did, ergo USSR wasn't socialist.

I think we could agree to disagree on this topic.


Sure. I heard about this, but I didn't yet read book containing such thesis.

Either words have meanings or they do not. I could call a rose a dog but it does not make it a dog. The United Soviet Socialist Republic was United and Soviet but not so much a republic in any real way and was far closer to a state run oligarchy than Socialist.

I stand by definition I supplied and I say that USSR was socialist. Feel free to disagree.

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15-08-2015, 11:57 AM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Either words have meanings or they do not. I could call a rose a dog but it does not make it a dog. The United Soviet Socialist Republic was United and Soviet but not so much a republic in any real way and was far closer to a state run oligarchy than Socialist.

I stand by definition I supplied and I say that USSR was socialist. Feel free to disagree.

Well I can't force you to be right.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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15-08-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:57 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:56 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I stand by definition I supplied and I say that USSR was socialist. Feel free to disagree.

Well I can't force you to be right.

Same goes for me. I do not mind you being wrong, not my business.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-08-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:37 AM)Alla Wrote:  You don't know what they considered.
If they didn't consider they were wrong.

I do not claim to be an expert but I've never seen book written by serious scholar which said that Marx or Lenin considered their creations to be religion.

So you could stop your nonsense. Or show some credible source that will tell that Marx or Lenin considered their ideas to be religion.
If I have to believe that their ideology is true and works I can call it "Religion".
there are different kinds of religions.

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15-08-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 12:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  If I have to believe that their ideology is true and works I can call it "Religion".

But you don't have so what is your point?

(15-08-2015 12:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  there are different kinds of religions.

And?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-08-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:29 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  It can also be argued that the U.S.S.R. was a form of state capitalism.

Sure. I heard about this, but I didn't yet read book containing such thesis.

Does the Communist Manifesto count? According to it, socialist organisation is bottom-up. The Soviet Union was a top-down oligarchy.

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15-08-2015, 12:15 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 12:21 PM by Alla.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 11:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The United Soviet Socialist Republic was United and Soviet but not so much a republic in any real way and was far closer to a state run oligarchy than Socialist.
It was Socialist. If Sanders start to take 90% of your income it will be socialist.
You will live the same way as all people lived in the USSR.

1)You will have free healthcare(crappy) but still health care. You will have to bribe doctors so they can give you good healthcare.
Doctors in the USSR were great and talented but not very rich. Of course, if you pay 90% of your income to people like Sanders.

2)You will have free education - schools, Universities, you name it. Great education. High level education. But, what good comes from it if by becoming an engineer and even a great engineer you are going to be poor? 90% of your income goes to people like Sanders?
Oh, because it is free for all people not all people can get in. Too many people. You have pass very hard tests. Or you can bribe people in the University.
The smart guy will be out but you who bribe will be in.

3)You will have free housing. You live in the house or apartment that is free for all your life. WOW! Great! But what if you do not like this house? what if you want to live in different place? what if your family grows and you need bigger place?
You can't sell it.

We said back then: socialism is when everything is everybody's which means it is NOBODY's.
You have everything but nothing is yours. No, wait, may be your cat or your dog or your coat is really yours. Big Grin

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15-08-2015, 12:22 PM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2015 12:27 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: First GOP Debate!
(15-08-2015 12:14 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(15-08-2015 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sure. I heard about this, but I didn't yet read book containing such thesis.

Does the Communist Manifesto count? According to it, socialist organisation is bottom-up. The Soviet Union was a top-down oligarchy.

Don't know, didn't read.

So we would have two different (?) definitions.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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