Fiscal Cliff
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20-11-2012, 11:44 AM
Fiscal Cliff
Can someone explain this to me? I don't really want to watch Faux News...

Tax cuts expire, and then what? The economy suddenly collapses somehow? I don't get it...
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20-11-2012, 03:41 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
In a nutshell.....remember the hysteria over the Y2K computer thing......yeah, its like that but the only MAIN difference is that its the ONLY story Faux Noise has to run now. So for the next 60 days expect to hear them yammer on and on and on about it.
This is much to do about nothing.
From a very basic understanding of what is about to happen...is things will fall back to pre W years....remember all those PROSPEROUS years of Clinton, surlplus and business boom.....that stuff.
If i were obama, i'd drive the GOP right off the fiscal cliff and let this country get back to normal again. At least give the uber rich a tax level that my middle class ass is carrying. Wanna talk about welfare? How about the welfare program W has handed the rich with his tax cuts?
D
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21-11-2012, 11:02 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(20-11-2012 11:44 AM)Diablo666 Wrote:  Can someone explain this to me? I don't really want to watch Faux News...

Tax cuts expire, and then what? The economy suddenly collapses somehow? I don't get it...

It's not necessarily a "cliff": Every sane economists describes it as a fiscal slope.

Basically, starting at the beginning of the year, what happens is the Bush Tax cuts expire (for everyone), payroll tax holiday expires, long-term unemployment benefit extension is out and across the board cuts, that don't touch entitlements really, start kicking in-- among other things, I'm sure.

The tax cuts are what are going to hit average people the hardest, because your taxes are going to go up, affecting your take-home-pay immediately. Well, immediately when you get paid. And then people on long-term, extended, unemployment will be affected.

Really none of this takes place immediately, at the same time, so that's why they call it more of a slope. The tax cuts will hit first, gradually as people get paid, and then, if Congress still fail to solve the problem, spending cuts will kick in at certain points.

The really big worry, in the short term, if a deal isn't made, is really consumer confidence, business confidence and ultimately the stock market. You can expect businesses to get really nervous, maybe start cutting back workers, cutting pay, not expanding-- to even more or lesser extent than they already were/weren't-- and you will basically see a likely shock to investments and spending, that will depend on how much people unnecessarily overreact.

Now, that's like a month or two, but if they really were to drop the ball and start allowing the spending cuts to kick in--not just kill confidence but obliterate it, while putting huge strains on the economy, simultaneously-- will see an actual double-dip, putting us back into recession and unemployment will shoot back up.

This isn't going to happen, however. It's more likely, if not 50/50, that we won't go over the "cliff"/slope, at all, but if we did, then it's very likely we reach a deal pretty quickly.

..............................

This is really just a manufactured short-term crisis, started by long-term, either purposefully or incompetently, caused crises.

These damned assholes caused a huge debt/deficit, even making statements like "deficits don't matter", and now that we have bigger problems, aside from the huge debt they stacked up, their little, ignorant elements are coming out making this the center of attention.

It's funny, because what really matters are the resources, yet they are worried about the 'money' that we print, manufacture, "out of thin air". If they spent as much time worrying about clean water, clean air, global warming, the environment, educating the world, providing food, shelter and infrastructure for the world, etc., as they did about the random pieces of paper that they printed dead, slave-owners and numbers on and called currency, think how better off the we would be.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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21-11-2012, 09:25 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
But what do you think pays for that infrastructure, shelter, food, education etc...?
That little printed money.

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22-11-2012, 12:10 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
Damn, how I wish the stock market would tank so bad that it never recovers. If you are wealthy you can buy and sell and make shit tons of money. If you don't have a spare 10k around, you can't trade online or at all. I would love to see weeks or even years in which many previously wealthy people with super cushy lives start jumping from building tops because they don't want to find a real job.
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22-11-2012, 12:20 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2012 12:29 AM by Logisch.)
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 12:10 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Damn, how I wish the stock market would tank so bad that it never recovers. If you are wealthy you can buy and sell and make shit tons of money. If you don't have a spare 10k around, you can't trade online or at all. I would love to see weeks or even years in which many previously wealthy people with super cushy lives start jumping from building tops because they don't want to find a real job.

That's the stupidest fucking thing I've heard. Fuck that opinion, I trade. As hard as I'm trying to not take it personally (because I know it wasn't directed at me) it pisses me off when people say this and know very little about it.

The market has a lot more cause and effect than you think. Wishing for the collapse of an entire market is retarded. So what, you think if it collapses and people who have worked their asses off making money were on the poverty level it would help you? You'd feel better because others would fail and it would make YOU feel better because then you can feel the same? That's pretty much what I get from your posts.

You don't have to be insanely wealthy to make money off the market, you can start with very little and work your way up. I work at 2 jobs and trade in my off time to pay for my toys. I'm young and I've got years ahead of me. Most people probably wouldn't want to work that many hours. But if you want to do something, you have to do something about it.

Hoping for the demise and poor well being of other people who make more than you is generally because you haven't got off your ass to do anything in the first place. Instead of whining about people who make more than you, spend more time doing something about it. I pay my taxes, I don't bitch about it. I don't wish for the ill being of other human beings, I prefer to help them.

Want to see things get better? Do something about it, or stop bitching. The way I see it, if you whine about shit and you don't do anything to help the cause, your word is not worth shit. Hoping others fail is not doing something about it. It's a sign of low self esteem, jealousy or entitlement. You are not entitled to anything, nor am I. Nor anyone here. Life is not fair. So step up and do something with your life, or stop complaining that others are succeeding.

Birdguy, there are times your posts make me just go, "yeah ok that's a different opinion" and then there are posts that I go, "he doesn't seem like a bad guy." and then there are posts like this where you seem to hate anyone who is doing good in life. I understand you're coming from a point where you've had people shit on you, but hoping to see people fail in life will not do anything for you or society.

The other thing is that I see people who act this way towards anyone who has money, even if it isn't a ton of money, who are just "well off" who you think would be the type with torches and pitchforks at your doorstep if there was ever any sort of "middle class vs poverty level" crisis, all because you have more than someone. I do not understand it. I've had shitty jobs, I've been shit on in life. I've been in debt up to my eyeballs at one point and felt like there was absolutely no way out but things got better. I never once hated on people who made more than me during that time, I didn't hope others would fail. I just worked my ass off till I started making progress and didn't settle for anything.

Could you explain to me why you feel like it's a great thing to see people who are succeeding fail when they themselves have worked hard to get there? Or is it really stemming and coming down to the "You have more than me and I hate life sometimes, therefore I hate you because life is unfair."?????
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22-11-2012, 02:50 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
Some work far harder than others. Traders don't normally work hard. What they consider hard work, I see as a vacation. I was hoping it would get those nasty ceo's and other wall street bankers. Them being poor would surely cause them to kill themselves.
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22-11-2012, 03:08 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 02:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Some work far harder than others. Traders don't normally work hard. What they consider hard work, I see as a vacation. I was hoping it would get those nasty ceo's and other wall street bankers. Them being poor would surely cause them to kill themselves.
There's a good intense bit of time spent on researching companies worth being worth investing in.

I think the people you are referring to (The CEOs who have ridiculous salaries and are unwilling to take paycuts for themselves, and instead the employees below them) wouldn't bother doing such things. My father works in a business where he is payed "ok" but his boss lives a very extravagant life. His boss does little to nothing, has insurance for himself and not the employees, always drives a new rig to work, is almost never there to help them and is only there to check in and make sure horrible shit didn't go down.

Those are the types of people who live as a leech off of others, perhaps those are who you are referring to?

Not all traders and not all people who make money are like that though, which is my point.

I will agree that people who leech off of others and make the existence of others more shitty are worthless human beings. But having money or making money does not necessarily make you one of those people. Try going into one of those real time market simulators sometime (fake money, but it uses real market values), give yourself something small like $2k and use only your own intuition and see how easy it is. Set a goal and try to make it. I think you'll find it's probably harder than you think. Then count up how many good decisions vs bad decisions you made and see what your gambling vs calculated decision ratio is. I think you'll find quite quickly, it's not exactly vacation decisions.


Anyone who tells you that they sit on their ass and have to do nothing to trade and it's easy money and quick and easy to do is likely full of shit.

But if I am reading this correctly, your issue seems to be people who are parasites who live off of the misfortune of others, or those who look for the least effort to make money. I would propose that they are not the same. After all, if you could make more money and put little effort into it, but not adversely affect the life of someone else in a negative way, why wouldn't you?

However, those that live off of the lives of others, adversely affect them in a negative manner, or those who would live off of the misfortune of others, those are not people I think are deserving of their fortune. But again, that is not every CEO, or trader, or person who has money.

Punishing everyone or an entire market because people exploit it is not the answer. In fact, as long as there are manipulative human beings, you could find any market that someone will manipulate and use the misfortune of others.

Having the idea of an entire market going to shit just to punish those that manipulate it is sort of like poisoning the entire water supply for all the animals in one forest just to kill some parasites that caused an area. Can you get rid of the parasites another way? Absolutely. Then the entire population benefits and the rest is preserved.

At the same time, I see no reason to necessarily limit owners or CEOs on their pay especially if they do good with it. Look at Bill Gates. The guy is one of the most wealthy men of all time. He gave to charities to an amount that would be seemingly unfathomable to you or I. Even if only a handful of the charities he gave to used it for good, on the amount he gave up, the amount you or I could contribute in our lifetime would be exceedingly minuscule in comparison.

So what is the real issue.... lazyness? Parasitic attitudes? Greed? All the above? Just one?
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22-11-2012, 04:11 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
Logisch, don't even bother. Seriously.

The guy guards abandoned buildings for a living and has so for the last 12 years.
He is extremely delusional and ignorant on how the world operates even though he likes to trot around giving his opinion like he does. He's the stupidest person on these forums and it's actually getting to the point where I'm starting to feeling bad for saying that because the more I read of his posts the more I start to think he has some sort of mental disability, no joke.

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22-11-2012, 05:12 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 03:08 AM)Logisch Wrote:  
(22-11-2012 02:50 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Some work far harder than others. Traders don't normally work hard. What they consider hard work, I see as a vacation. I was hoping it would get those nasty ceo's and other wall street bankers. Them being poor would surely cause them to kill themselves.
There's a good intense bit of time spent on researching companies worth being worth investing in.

I think the people you are referring to (The CEOs who have ridiculous salaries and are unwilling to take paycuts for themselves, and instead the employees below them) wouldn't bother doing such things. My father works in a business where he is payed "ok" but his boss lives a very extravagant life. His boss does little to nothing, has insurance for himself and not the employees, always drives a new rig to work, is almost never there to help them and is only there to check in and make sure horrible shit didn't go down.

Those are the types of people who live as a leech off of others, perhaps those are who you are referring to?

Not all traders and not all people who make money are like that though, which is my point.

I will agree that people who leech off of others and make the existence of others more shitty are worthless human beings. But having money or making money does not necessarily make you one of those people. Try going into one of those real time market simulators sometime (fake money, but it uses real market values), give yourself something small like $2k and use only your own intuition and see how easy it is. Set a goal and try to make it. I think you'll find it's probably harder than you think. Then count up how many good decisions vs bad decisions you made and see what your gambling vs calculated decision ratio is. I think you'll find quite quickly, it's not exactly vacation decisions.


Anyone who tells you that they sit on their ass and have to do nothing to trade and it's easy money and quick and easy to do is likely full of shit.

But if I am reading this correctly, your issue seems to be people who are parasites who live off of the misfortune of others, or those who look for the least effort to make money. I would propose that they are not the same. After all, if you could make more money and put little effort into it, but not adversely affect the life of someone else in a negative way, why wouldn't you?

However, those that live off of the lives of others, adversely affect them in a negative manner, or those who would live off of the misfortune of others, those are not people I think are deserving of their fortune. But again, that is not every CEO, or trader, or person who has money.

Punishing everyone or an entire market because people exploit it is not the answer. In fact, as long as there are manipulative human beings, you could find any market that someone will manipulate and use the misfortune of others.

Having the idea of an entire market going to shit just to punish those that manipulate it is sort of like poisoning the entire water supply for all the animals in one forest just to kill some parasites that caused an area. Can you get rid of the parasites another way? Absolutely. Then the entire population benefits and the rest is preserved.

At the same time, I see no reason to necessarily limit owners or CEOs on their pay especially if they do good with it. Look at Bill Gates. The guy is one of the most wealthy men of all time. He gave to charities to an amount that would be seemingly unfathomable to you or I. Even if only a handful of the charities he gave to used it for good, on the amount he gave up, the amount you or I could contribute in our lifetime would be exceedingly minuscule in comparison.

So what is the real issue.... lazyness? Parasitic attitudes? Greed? All the above? Just one?


It is all of the above.

Too answer muffs, I have no mental problems. I just live in a country where being a parasite gets you everything. If you are lazy and don't want to work, the government will wipe your ass for you. Of course I took it to an extreme, but you get my point. If you start off wealthy it is easy to stay that way. Be it trading or just running a business that fucks all the employees. If you start poor, the odds are greatly against you ending up rich.
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