Fiscal Cliff
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22-11-2012, 10:34 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(21-11-2012 09:25 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what do you think pays for that infrastructure, shelter, food, education etc...?
That little printed money.

The money is made up.....by humans.

The resources were there, and are there, regardless of money.

Money doesn't magically turn natural resources into things used for the advancements of human societies-- Human labor and ingenuity do that.

Money was just made to represent the value of resources, but at the end of the day, it was still made up. The resources are still the resources, and those resources are what need to be cultivated, conserved, used properly and inventively, and turned into things beneficial to humans.

When resources aren't being properly utilized, society is fucked. When money runs out, as long as resources to make it are still there, you can just print more; debt can be forgiven, at any point. Real resources, time and human lives, when lost, can't be made up for.


My point is, money might be a clever way to represent value and capitalism an effective system in line with human nature, but at the end of the day, our main goal ought to be effectively utilizing resources. You have to question the amount of resources and effort going toward things like building churches, printing religious literature, paying the clergy and indoctrinating people with religion, when you could see a huge difference by shifting that toward legitimate, reality based education.

Human beings are way too stupid for that, so it's not going to happen any time soon, if at all. I just thought it would be worth pointing out.

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22-11-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 10:34 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  My point is, money might be a clever way to represent value and capitalism an effective system in line with human nature, but at the end of the day, our main goal ought to be effectively utilizing resources.
Which is exactly what companies have to do if they plan to remain competitive.

(22-11-2012 10:34 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  You have to question the amount of resources and effort going toward things like building churches, printing religious literature, paying the clergy and indoctrinating people with religion, when you could see a huge difference by shifting that toward legitimate, reality based education.
It really depends on what you consider "effectively utilizing resources". If you're talking about making the highest amount of money with the lowest possible cost, church leaders and the likes of them are very good at that. Without indoctrinating the youth, these peeps would run out of "customers" and therefore out of money as well. I think it's obvious why they don't want that to happen.

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22-11-2012, 06:57 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 10:34 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  
(21-11-2012 09:25 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  But what do you think pays for that infrastructure, shelter, food, education etc...?
That little printed money.

The money is made up.....by humans.

The resources were there, and are there, regardless of money.

Money doesn't magically turn natural resources into things used for the advancements of human societies-- Human labor and ingenuity do that.

Money was just made to represent the value of resources, but at the end of the day, it was still made up. The resources are still the resources, and those resources are what need to be cultivated, conserved, used properly and inventively, and turned into things beneficial to humans.

When resources aren't being properly utilized, society is fucked. When money runs out, as long as resources to make it are still there, you can just print more; debt can be forgiven, at any point. Real resources, time and human lives, when lost, can't be made up for.


My point is, money might be a clever way to represent value and capitalism an effective system in line with human nature, but at the end of the day, our main goal ought to be effectively utilizing resources. You have to question the amount of resources and effort going toward things like building churches, printing religious literature, paying the clergy and indoctrinating people with religion, when you could see a huge difference by shifting that toward legitimate, reality based education.

Human beings are way too stupid for that, so it's not going to happen any time soon, if at all. I just thought it would be worth pointing out.
You don't understand what money is. You think you know but your literal translation, printed money, is only part of what money is.

Money is what people will pay for something. Supply and Demand.
Way back in the day money came in the form of sea shells, later it was gold or silver etc...
You could have two neighbors who exchange their services to help eachother out, that is a form of money.

Money is what people are willing to pay for certain goods.

Today we just happen to use electronic and printed (and coins) money as a way of easily representing and adding a numerical value to things like labor.

It doesn't matter if there is absolutely no money in the world, something else will come up, whether it's exchange of services, exchange of goods etc..
ie: I'm not going to pump gas for free. Nobody enjoys pumping gas (trust me, the job fucking sucks donkey balls) and so nobody is going to volunteer to do that. Now it doesn't matter if in exchange for me pumping gas my boss pays my rent/food/power etc.. or if he gives me money equal to the value of that stuff. BUT with the money, at least I have a choice in how I spend it, ie: if I wanna skip out on a rent payment I can choice to do that.]

aka: In perfect communism every works for the greater good. I pump gas and someone else cleans the streets.
This is an exchange of services (communism is just one big exchange of services) and so thus a form of money because the price I am willing to pay for someone else to sweep the streets or whatever is pumping gas (in this example).

You see, so with actual money and a capitalist system I value my work at $XX an hour and then I buy something which is valuing someone's work at $xx an hour (depending on what I am willing to pay for that good). It doesn't matter if it's done through the use of money or the use of an exchange of services it's all the same, "how much you will to pay for whatever".
BUT at least with physical money, you have more control. You have greater flexibility, you have choice in a greater degree.
example: This bottle of Lift+ next me (an energy drink). I value the people's effort that went into making this drink because and I was willing to pay $1.99 for that effort (into this one bottle). Now, my sister HATES energy drinks and so she doesn't value the work/effort put into making that energy drink and so doesn't buy the drink.
Under communism I have no choice, whether I value that drink or not, I'm paying for it (in the form of pumping gas).


Seriously do not fall into the trap that your life would be better off under communism/perfect communism because all that you would gain is... well.. you'd lose flexibility and choice.

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23-11-2012, 11:21 AM (This post was last modified: 24-11-2012 03:33 PM by TrulyX.)
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(22-11-2012 06:57 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  You don't understand what money is. You think you know but your literal translation, printed money, is only part of what money is.

Money is what people will pay for something. Supply and Demand.
Way back in the day money came in the form of sea shells, later it was gold or silver etc...
You could have two neighbors who exchange their services to help eachother out, that is a form of money.

Money is what people are willing to pay for certain goods.

Today we just happen to use electronic and printed (and coins) money as a way of easily representing and adding a numerical value to things like labor.

It doesn't matter if there is absolutely no money in the world, something else will come up, whether it's exchange of services, exchange of goods etc..
ie: I'm not going to pump gas for free. Nobody enjoys pumping gas (trust me, the job fucking sucks donkey balls) and so nobody is going to volunteer to do that. Now it doesn't matter if in exchange for me pumping gas my boss pays my rent/food/power etc.. or if he gives me money equal to the value of that stuff. BUT with the money, at least I have a choice in how I spend it, ie: if I wanna skip out on a rent payment I can choice to do that.]

aka: In perfect communism every works for the greater good. I pump gas and someone else cleans the streets.
This is an exchange of services (communism is just one big exchange of services) and so thus a form of money because the price I am willing to pay for someone else to sweep the streets or whatever is pumping gas (in this example).

You see, so with actual money and a capitalist system I value my work at $XX an hour and then I buy something which is valuing someone's work at $xx an hour (depending on what I am willing to pay for that good). It doesn't matter if it's done through the use of money or the use of an exchange of services it's all the same, "how much you will to pay for whatever".
BUT at least with physical money, you have more control. You have greater flexibility, you have choice in a greater degree.
example: This bottle of Lift+ next me (an energy drink). I value the people's effort that went into making this drink because and I was willing to pay $1.99 for that effort (into this one bottle). Now, my sister HATES energy drinks and so she doesn't value the work/effort put into making that energy drink and so doesn't buy the drink.
Under communism I have no choice, whether I value that drink or not, I'm paying for it (in the form of pumping gas).

Is ignorance really bliss???

I'd have to say, out of all the situations, this is one where the grass looks substantially less green from the other side.

Quote:Seriously do not fall into the trap that your life would be better off under communism/perfect communism because all that you would gain is... well.. you'd lose flexibility and choice.

I do look forward to the daily, regular versus menthol, black versus red label.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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24-11-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(20-11-2012 03:41 PM)Denicio Wrote:  In a nutshell.....remember the hysteria over the Y2K computer thing......yeah, its like that but the only MAIN difference is that its the ONLY story Faux Noise has to run now. So for the next 60 days expect to hear them yammer on and on and on about it.
This is much to do about nothing.
From a very basic understanding of what is about to happen...is things will fall back to pre W years....remember all those PROSPEROUS years of Clinton, surlplus and business boom.....that stuff.
If i were obama, i'd drive the GOP right off the fiscal cliff and let this country get back to normal again. At least give the uber rich a tax level that my middle class ass is carrying. Wanna talk about welfare? How about the welfare program W has handed the rich with his tax cuts?
D
You are wrong, America has the world's highest corporate tax: 35%. You can go to literally anywhere in the world and there is less regulations for business owners.
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24-11-2012, 11:16 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(24-11-2012 03:24 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  
(20-11-2012 03:41 PM)Denicio Wrote:  In a nutshell.....remember the hysteria over the Y2K computer thing......yeah, its like that but the only MAIN difference is that its the ONLY story Faux Noise has to run now. So for the next 60 days expect to hear them yammer on and on and on about it.
This is much to do about nothing.
From a very basic understanding of what is about to happen...is things will fall back to pre W years....remember all those PROSPEROUS years of Clinton, surlplus and business boom.....that stuff.
If i were obama, i'd drive the GOP right off the fiscal cliff and let this country get back to normal again. At least give the uber rich a tax level that my middle class ass is carrying. Wanna talk about welfare? How about the welfare program W has handed the rich with his tax cuts?
D
You are wrong, America has the world's highest corporate tax: 35%. You can go to literally anywhere in the world and there is less regulations for business owners.


My father in-law's girlfriend is an accountant. She has told us how many loopholes and deductions are there for the filthy rich. Yes the corporate tax is high however, there are so many ways around it that they really pay almost nothing.
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25-11-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(24-11-2012 11:16 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 03:24 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  You are wrong, America has the world's highest corporate tax: 35%. You can go to literally anywhere in the world and there is less regulations for business owners.


My father in-law's girlfriend is an accountant. She has told us how many loopholes and deductions are there for the filthy rich. Yes the corporate tax is high however, there are so many ways around it that they really pay almost nothing.
Then the fault lies with the government.
Corporations are for the most part going to act in a beneficial way to them.
It's the governments job to regulate and legislate against things like that happening.

It's like if you have a pitbull. Pitbulls can be very dangerous dogs. So if the pitbull is a corporation and the owner is the government, then it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the dog is fenced in.

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25-11-2012, 08:11 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(20-11-2012 11:44 AM)Diablo666 Wrote:  Can someone explain this to me? I don't really want to watch Faux News...

Tax cuts expire, and then what? The economy suddenly collapses somehow? I don't get it...
Basically, anything which troubles rich people is an economic disastor - that's why we had to give the rich people trillions of dollars during the 2008 crash. The non-rich people don't matter for they are just a bunch of moochers and second-handers who would just curl up and die if it weren't for the brilliant economic leadership of the rich.
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26-11-2012, 12:18 AM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(25-11-2012 07:38 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 11:16 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  My father in-law's girlfriend is an accountant. She has told us how many loopholes and deductions are there for the filthy rich. Yes the corporate tax is high however, there are so many ways around it that they really pay almost nothing.

Then the fault lies with the government.
Corporations are for the most part going to act in a beneficial way to them.
It's the governments job to regulate and legislate against things like that happening.

It's like if you have a pitbull. Pitbulls can be very dangerous dogs. So if the pitbull is a corporation and the owner is the government, then it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the dog is fenced in.


A better analogy would be a pitbull that shits gold. Pitbulls can be the sweetest dogs if you know how to raise them. The corporations donate huge sums of money to political candidates. Because the corporations donate so much money, the government feels compelled to do what is good for the corporations instead of what is good for the country.
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26-11-2012, 07:10 PM
RE: Fiscal Cliff
(24-11-2012 11:16 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  
(24-11-2012 03:24 PM)FZUMedia Wrote:  You are wrong, America has the world's highest corporate tax: 35%. You can go to literally anywhere in the world and there is less regulations for business owners.


My father in-law's girlfriend is an accountant. She has told us how many loopholes and deductions are there for the filthy rich. Yes the corporate tax is high however, there are so many ways around it that they really pay almost nothing.
Wasn't it GE that got something ridiculous like 14 billion tax rebate last year?
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