Fishing and life.
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31-10-2012, 01:34 PM
RE: Fishing and life.
(31-10-2012 01:25 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 01:19 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Actually I believe that strengthens my ideas on it. Primates are more complex, and more intelligent that bulls. As for bullfighting? Meh, I don't care. If it were chimp fighting, I would have more reservations.

I'll give you that - it does strengthen your point.

Still, bullfighting must die a quick and violent death (and if it takes one or several hundred of its practitioners and fans with it, I won't mind... torture is not acceptable under any circumstances, deriving pleasure from it - well, I don't think I have words in all the languages I speak, to express how much more unacceptable it is)

Torture? Hmm, I admit, I don't know shit about bullfighting. I just see them waving a red curtain and a bull missing it, the end. All I know it from movies, so I guess there is more to it than I'm aware of. Bull fighting isn't exactly a big sport in the US.

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31-10-2012, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 31-10-2012 01:55 PM by Vera.)
RE: Fishing and life.
(31-10-2012 01:34 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(31-10-2012 01:25 PM)Vera Wrote:  I'll give you that - it does strengthen your point.

Still, bullfighting must die a quick and violent death (and if it takes one or several hundred of its practitioners and fans with it, I won't mind... torture is not acceptable under any circumstances, deriving pleasure from it - well, I don't think I have words in all the languages I speak, to express how much more unacceptable it is)

Torture? Hmm, I admit, I don't know shit about bullfighting. I just see them waving a red curtain and a bull missing it, the end. All I know it from movies, so I guess there is more to it than I'm aware of. Bull fighting isn't exactly a big sport in the US.

It's not a sport anywhere, it's a horrible manifestation of everything that's bad about humankind. (not lashing out at you, but at those who call the sick pleasure of watching a living creature tortured, a sport).

""In a typical bullfight, the animal is attacked by men on foot and on horseback with lances and harpoons. The matador forces the confused and exhausted bull to make a few charges before eventually attempting to kill it with a sword. If not killed, the animal is stabbed repeatedly until paralysed. When the bull finally collapses its spinal cord is cut, but the animal may still be conscious as its ears and tail are cut off and kept as a trophy.

Further cruelty takes place away from the gaze of the general public. Bulls are sometimes weakened and disorientated prior to a fight for example through drugging, or by having Vaseline smeared in their eyes to impair their vision. A bull’s horns may also be shaved before a fight, making them extremely sensitive to pain.

A bullfight is never a fair fight. The animals involved suffer immensely, and all in the name of human entertainment.”

I have a lot more to say, but I'm already starting to foam at the mouth, so I think I'll stop now and take a couple (or ten) deep breaths. Sometimes I do despair Sad

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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31-10-2012, 04:31 PM
RE: Fishing and life.
Looking at morality in regards to animals, I look at it this way: Human beings are so immoral when it comes to the treatment of other human beings-- rational beings whom we actually have a direct moral obligation to within a moral construct --that by time you even get to mentioning animals, all I can say is, "Fuck it".

I try to be optimistic, but I think I give up every other day on us as a species. People are eventually all going to go back to their own individually and culturally subjective moral standards anyway, to justify, basically, to themselves, things that they want to do, or personally aspire toward, or against, while still wanting to call their actions good, right or just and things they personally oppose as bad, evil, wrong or unjust, regardless.

So, go ahead and fight pit bulls, go fishing, deer hunt, cock fight, bull fight, do all of it. It's incredible practice for when you move on to human beings, and you'll already have your practice justifying why your actions are okay.

..........................

To answer the question(s):

We are rational; that's who we are to judge. Our brains are capable of doing it. Humans do give meaning to nonsense all of the time, but that can be cases of irrationality and faulty logic. As far as things like morality, that wouldn't be something I'd say is nonsense. People make moral judgements all of the time that do involve irrationality and bad logic, but morality and philosophy as a whole are fine.

Off of the irrationality, there are also the more primitive functions of the brain. It has confused me, for some time, as to why people have an almost automatic reaction to get upset about cruelty toward animals, then hypocritically, go an do things that can, by their own description, be cruelty, and then attempt to justify it, like I was saying above. It's fun, and it's something that I like, insert bullshit, insert bullshit, insert bullshit, so it can't be immoral.

Guilt is a funny emotion as well. I think you always have to separate the emotional feeling of guilt, with consciously thinking that what you did was wrong and something that you shouldn't have done. If that's possible. I like the authenticity more than anything. "Fuck it, I could care less" or "I did it, did I not" or "They were home", are among my favorites.

I think saying things should have meaning, to that which they have no meaning, is an example of human beings giving meaning to nonsense. Either that or it's stating the obvious.

Lastly, "Fuck the maggot".

..........................

As far as fishing and life: I don't like touching the worm to put it on the hook, I don't like touching the fish to get it off the hook, and I can sit there all day until I want to leave, unless someone pisses me off, then I have to throw my pole in the water and leave.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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31-10-2012, 07:03 PM
RE: Fishing and life.
(30-10-2012 12:22 PM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I could never be a vegetarian unless food chemists were able to produce a readily available replacement--something cheap that could be purchased in both restaurants and grocery stores--that tasted like the real thing. That's not going to happen anytime soon, so I'll keep on eating meat. I'm just glad I personally don't have to catch, clean, and cook the animals myself.

You'd be surprised what a cook - a good one- can do with tofu. I'm not a vegetarion nor a vegan, but I have been to a few places that made me question my carnivorous tendencies. Try The Loving Hut, if there is one in your area. A bit preachy, and they have an eastern mysticism schtick, but the food is really, really good.

Sadly, my personal attempts at vegan cooking have not been so successful.
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02-11-2012, 08:19 PM
RE: Fishing and life.
I enjoy fishing, and I fish for sustenance, just as I hunt. Problem with fishing is one has near no control of what one catches; so if its under size I do my best to release it as painlessly as possible. Otherwise, its food.
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04-11-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: Fishing and life.



"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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11-11-2012, 12:44 PM
RE: Fishing and life.
(30-10-2012 10:47 AM)bemore Wrote:  Ive been doing a lot of fishing recently.... I caught my biggest common carp yesterday at 8.4 Lbs.

Whilst sat on the bank I was looking at the maggots I was using as bait. In there own unique way they are struggling for survival with an awareness to life only a maggot could comprehend....born and bred simply for the purpose of being fed to fish. I am unable to say wether the maggot feels fear or pain, wether it has the potential for this or if our undertsanding of these two things would be the same as for us... but when I pierce them onto my hook they react to it in their own way.

The fish in the lake are doing their own thing... they too are surviving the best way they can and they mooch about looking for sustenance, existing a lot simpler compared to us.... but nevertheless existing in their own and only way they know how.

Nom nom nom nom no.... the piece of food they were eating has a hook in it and dependant on the catch the hook could be in their mouth, down their gullet or in their body. People used to believe that fish couldnt feel pain but it is possibly more complex...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish ..... even so I fight the fish until it is too tired and then I bring it in... pulling it outwards into a completely alien, hostile and eventually deadly enviroment.

Maybe more of a "reason" could be given to "Justify" catching the fish if I actually ate it. Instead I do it for "pleasure" and generally imprison the fish for a few hours in my keep net.

I dont like animal cruelty. When I hear about it or see it I get angry and reactionary. Yet I am faced with the "morality" of my actions and this will potentially shape my outcome.... and differing on my perceptions of "good" and "bad" I could potentially end up feeling "guilt" occasionally over what I do.

How many moral dilemmas do we face everyday and automatically "judge" in a split second on how to react almost sub-consciously and consciously at times???

What difference does it make and what do all the words mean other than the meaning that you yourself give them on the bigger scale??? Some people try to use them to describe and justify "life" (its reason, how to do it, what will happen/judgement etc etc) yet these words... whilst yes being of a kind of paramount importance to the individual/s on earth... on the bigger scale in the confines of infinite space our words dont really seem to mean a lot.

When we go inwards to the world of quantum mechanics the words are also inadequate to describe what is happening.

These huge things are part of us yet this kind of "nilhism" can only exist in my head, it cannot be applied to "life"

Who are we to judge the universe..... and what fate of the maggot???




To me, it appears like you are trying to answer the age old question of "What is the meaning of life?" Your post really isn't about the maggots or the fish, and it is filled with far more questions than answers.

In many respects I agree with what you said. You wondered if the maggot felt any fear. I think fear is a by-product of all sentient creatures' inherent motivation to survive; survival instincts. In some creatures it may be more developed, while in others it is not so developed, but it can still be found in all sentient life.

I think that the sum total of our existence is a basic mathematical equation of -1 +1= 0, where -1 = decreasing our pain, while +1 = Increasing our pleasure. We are always struggling to do one or the other. Every last thing we do is motivated by one or the other.

For example, fear is a painful emotion to experience. It makes us feel uncomfortable. We will do whatever is required to end the fear because it ends the pain.

On the other hand, sex is both an emotional and physical form of pleasure. We seek it out to increase our pleasure.

Ignorance can also be painful. The many unanswered questions you asked in your post can manifest a desire to have them answered so that you can alleviate the pain of ignorance, and experience the pleasure of knowledge.

What all this seems to translate to is that each and every thing we do is a selfish act. We are all either trying to decrease our self pain, or increase our self pleasure. I long ago came to the conclusion that it is impossible for any of us be selfless in any way.

There is no such thing as a selfless act.

Such a bold statement, isn't it? But when you really think it through, and analyse various different scenarios that seem to demonstrate a selfless act, you come to realize that it was the self appeasement of a certain emotion that accounted for the actions of the person who seemingly committed a selfless act.

Pleasure & Pain: That's the meaning of life that is common to us all. We can be philosophical about it, and each of us will ascribe some philosophical view of what the meaning of life means to us as individuals, but the reality of the meaning of life is common among us all.

We are all inherently 100% selfish.

Sounds like a bad thing, huh? No, it's not. Its the way all sentient life actually is. Sure, some people can take their selfishness to an extreme whereas their attempts to increase their pleasure could mean to inflict some kind of pain on somebody else.

Even your post here was designed to increase your pleasure. You are looking for answers to alleviate the pain of your ignorance. Even my post back to you is a selfish act as it my hope that you accept what I am saying and then I somehow receive the pleasure of acceptance and approval.

Anyways, excellent soul-searching post.

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How can anyone become an atheist when we were all born with no religious beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were ...
BORN THIS WAY
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