Five Stages of Grief
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15-10-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(13-10-2015 04:38 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 08:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It is actually rather simple

Yes, it is.

(13-10-2015 08:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Given a vast amount of human knowledge compiled about chemistry, volcanism, solar radiation, time, catalysts, chemicals, compounds--including literally hundreds of thousands of patents and industrial products, some of them world-changing like plastics and explosives--scientists cannot by any effort, directed, guided effort, come up with the basic building blocks of the basic building blocks of specialized cells, life."

Aside from the fact that this is blatantly false, as has been explained to you multiple times in this very thread, this is irrelevant. Practical difficulty is not equivalent to impossibility, no matter how much you wish it were.

You are reducing the scale. The scale of the difficulty is akin to you saying, "We traveled to the moon in just days--faster-than-light travel is just round the corner."

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15-10-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(13-10-2015 06:15 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  As Chas pointed out in some thread awhile back, there is no delineation between life and non-life. A fragment of mineral dust is unambiguously non-life; a microbe is life. I believe a comprehensive definition of life has yet to be formulated that helps locate where in the vast difference between a fleck of mineral dust and a microbe the property of life takes hold.

This means that stirring up some chemicals over a bunsen burner on a lab bench will most likely NOT produce something unambiguously life, but something between a particle of mineral and a microbe - with no clear indication of what subsequent transformative action will take it closer to life or closer to disintegration. No rabbit is going to hop out of test tube fully developed.

THAT has retarded synthesis of life, not that it can't be done outright. That fact that science has achieved immense biological success elsewhere does not indicate that life synthesis is impossible, it indicates the opposite, that life synthesis lies ahead, next week or next century. But probably not by creation of a microbe wholesale, instead by a chain of transformation across stages.

Man had yearned to fly for millenia before actually getting aloft, and possessed the technology to build steerable gliders the moment light fabrics could be stretched taut on wood frames. The fact that hundreds of years went by without positive results with this technology at hand was no indication that heavier than air flight was impossible, it took counter-intuitive insights to finally succeed (among them the insight that mimicking birds was the wrong approach).

Likewise there may yet still be counter-intuitive insights undiscovered necessary to life synthesis, but to insist it's impossible is to presume FULL knowledge of every principal involved so as to be able to make such a declaration, and so far the only such declarations are made by those who have far LESS knowledge about the subject than the scientists actively engaged in it.

Please cite your choice of examples as to observations made of randomly formed things that are not only mineral but towards microbial--or if you like, experimentally created things.

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15-10-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(13-10-2015 05:45 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 08:29 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

It is actually rather simple and you are overcomplicating the argument in an attempt (hardly veiled!) at obfuscation.

Scientists can reverse engineer a wide range of compounds even after catalysts have enacted changes--just watch any chef on Shark Tank who is told, "Without protection, your recipe and ingredients will be reverse engineered by corporate competitors..."

The issues:

"Given eons of time, elements and compound substances came together in an open system with input from volcanism, solar radiation, etc. to form the building blocks of eventual highly specified and complex things--simple life."

"Given a vast amount of human knowledge compiled about chemistry, volcanism, solar radiation, time, catalysts, chemicals, compounds--including literally hundreds of thousands of patents and industrial products, some of them world-changing like plastics and explosives--scientists cannot by any effort, directed, guided effort, come up with the basic building blocks of the basic building blocks of specialized cells, life."

Wrong again.

The basic building blocks form naturally.

You keep ignoring the vast amount of time available versus the very few years anyone has worked on this.

Try again. Drinking Beverage

Actually, don't until you have learned some science.

Vast amounts of time neither increase the available amount of possible compounds nor do they make even the simplest life on Earth less complex than it is or was.

You in turn are ignoring those scientists, secular and religious, who have chimed in that it is not likely even given more time than we've given for life to form on Earth.

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15-10-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(15-10-2015 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 08:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  There is no Overcompletation being made. You along made some assumption that it matters or means something negative against the argument of life arising in the manner of your first quoted paragraph because it's not discovered.

So what? It doesn't mean anything that Humanity at this stage hasn't. So what they can make marvelous chemicals, compounds, and plastics... That's not a direct negation to say that because they haven't unfounded something X it's not possible too or inaccurate.

There's no adjusting of your argument, it's merely entirely assumption based. You assume this is some issue but there is no logically connection there. Just your rambling assumptions.

Chemistry isn't yet discovered?

Chemistry of exactness to actively generate life, yes.

Again you're really dishonest or struggling. To assert, like going to the moon vs traveling fast than light... that comparison is making a judgement of something seemingly incapable by definition of modern understanding or well out... The reality is sitll an unknown figure to what degree being able to find more data on the formation of life can be.

You don't have any rational justification to knowing what the comparison it is of speed to travel to the moon to speed of light travel. It is perhaps not likely, you don't know how unlikely it is still. That's just all unknown ground. It's just showing off your routine ignorance and never caring to understand, when you refuse to act sensibly to the problems. Don't assume anything you don't need to if you want actual understanding.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-10-2015, 06:06 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(15-10-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are reducing the scale.

I'm really not.

(15-10-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Vast amounts of time neither increase the available amount of possible compounds nor do they make even the simplest life on Earth less complex than it is or was.

That's wonderful.

It's still not an argument.

The compounds making up life on Earth can be shown, rather tautologically, to exist on Earth. And no amount of complexity makes life anything other than the result of chemical activity.

(15-10-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You in turn are ignoring those scientists, secular and religious, who have chimed in that it is not likely even given more time than we've given for life to form on Earth.

Even if these people exist - and I look forward to your future attempts at quote-mining and appeals to inappropriate authority to show that they do - the evidence is against them.

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15-10-2015, 06:21 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have every reason to believe and trust the Bible. You have speculation.

Actually, no you do not. Perhaps you were told to and was so gullible you fell for it.

When I was told I would die during Nov' 14. felt none of the 5 stages. I just thought "I'm gonna fight this! I have too much to live for."

Twice since I was told I could expect to die.

I made no bargain with a thing that does not exist. I simply fought. I did watch several xians give up so they could fall into the arms of their precious non existent god. I still exist. They do not.

5 stages of grief did not and will never exist for me. If I do not survive, I will go with dignity.

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16-10-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(15-10-2015 12:01 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Chemistry isn't yet discovered?

Chemistry of exactness to actively generate life, yes.

Again you're really dishonest or struggling. To assert, like going to the moon vs traveling fast than light... that comparison is making a judgement of something seemingly incapable by definition of modern understanding or well out... The reality is sitll an unknown figure to what degree being able to find more data on the formation of life can be.

You don't have any rational justification to knowing what the comparison it is of speed to travel to the moon to speed of light travel. It is perhaps not likely, you don't know how unlikely it is still. That's just all unknown ground. It's just showing off your routine ignorance and never caring to understand, when you refuse to act sensibly to the problems. Don't assume anything you don't need to if you want actual understanding.

The problem with your "random god of the gaps" is simple. Organic life is more than compound things but rather, compound things that interact with one another in sustainable processes. It wasn't a lightning bolt that struck goo and made life, nor solar radiation, nor volcanism, nor any natural process you can think of--it required God working on the order of nanotechnology!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-10-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(15-10-2015 06:06 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are reducing the scale.

I'm really not.

(15-10-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Vast amounts of time neither increase the available amount of possible compounds nor do they make even the simplest life on Earth less complex than it is or was.

That's wonderful.

It's still not an argument.

The compounds making up life on Earth can be shown, rather tautologically, to exist on Earth. And no amount of complexity makes life anything other than the result of chemical activity.

(15-10-2015 11:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You in turn are ignoring those scientists, secular and religious, who have chimed in that it is not likely even given more time than we've given for life to form on Earth.

Even if these people exist - and I look forward to your future attempts at quote-mining and appeals to inappropriate authority to show that they do - the evidence is against them.

Of course the basic blocks of life are on Earth. Adam wasn't made from the inside of a star but starting with carbon-rich Earth. We both know we can pull the water from a human body and then we have a few dollars' worth of chemicals--without the divine spark added.

The problem you'd have if you could show how chemical reactions form the basics of life is in showing how on a random basis--no matter how much advantage you offer to selective, survival-rich evolution--cell structures evolved to work harmoniously together. Example? No animal can have a respiratory system without a circulatory system AND an excretory system AND muscles or cells or cilia moving the respiratory organs AND etc.

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16-10-2015, 12:52 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(15-10-2015 06:21 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I have every reason to believe and trust the Bible. You have speculation.

Actually, no you do not. Perhaps you were told to and was so gullible you fell for it.

When I was told I would die during Nov' 14. felt none of the 5 stages. I just thought "I'm gonna fight this! I have too much to live for."

Twice since I was told I could expect to die.

I made no bargain with a thing that does not exist. I simply fought. I did watch several xians give up so they could fall into the arms of their precious non existent god. I still exist. They do not.

5 stages of grief did not and will never exist for me. If I do not survive, I will go with dignity.

Correct, I have prophecy and revelation, not speculation. Correct.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-10-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(16-10-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 12:01 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Chemistry of exactness to actively generate life, yes.

Again you're really dishonest or struggling. To assert, like going to the moon vs traveling fast than light... that comparison is making a judgement of something seemingly incapable by definition of modern understanding or well out... The reality is sitll an unknown figure to what degree being able to find more data on the formation of life can be.

You don't have any rational justification to knowing what the comparison it is of speed to travel to the moon to speed of light travel. It is perhaps not likely, you don't know how unlikely it is still. That's just all unknown ground. It's just showing off your routine ignorance and never caring to understand, when you refuse to act sensibly to the problems. Don't assume anything you don't need to if you want actual understanding.

The problem with your "random god of the gaps" is simple. Organic life is more than compound things but rather, compound things that interact with one another in sustainable processes. It wasn't a lightning bolt that struck goo and made life, nor solar radiation, nor volcanism, nor any natural process you can think of--it required God working on the order of nanotechnology!

A baseless assertion you KNOW because.... .... ..? There is no logical reason to proclaim because a particular bit of knowledge is unknown, a another answer is certain.

Why do you continue to bother existing knowing all the answers or why bother coming on here and repeating the same pattern over and over, just asserting and asserting knowledge. Avoiding conversations when they go paths you can't work... then continue asserting what was avoided.

What happened to the questions you refused to answer unless others agreed there was "absolutes" in the world. You stopped that questioning apparently when you didn't like the responses you got. There is plenty of times you're seemingly not a troll, on a path of at least questioning, not that I think it's getting to you but you're communicating like a sensible person.. then you just STOP, and make an assertion like this or stop on the topic all together. What is it that you can't handle to just continue a normal conversation and ignore the details you find unrespectful or disagreeing to your premise?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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