Five Stages of Grief
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-08-2015, 11:22 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But no, atheists have to explain how their acceptance of Grandma is gone is somehow, oddly much better than we'll see Grandma again. How sad.

I have no problem with admitting that my grandmother is gone forever. I miss her, certainly, but I am not so immature as to think that the universe gives a damn.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Unbeliever's post
18-08-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(17-08-2015 08:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  Erm .... ALL the steps occur AFTER the event, when nobody is walking around with cancer anymore or having a rough spot.
I disagree. There are organized meetings for grieving family members of cancer, & other terminally ill patients; even for addicts' families. For any person watching a loved one go through something so arduous is very difficult, & for some others it is as devastating as if their loved one is no longer there.

(17-08-2015 08:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  And if that's not weird enough, you can't control it. Your rationality doesn't have a damn thing to say about it. The sequence can also change.
I agree with you here: ones rationale appears nearly irrelevant. I angered my mother, in my childhood, when I couldn't comprehend why she was sobbing for days, after her Aunt had died. I thought her faith was supposed to comfort her; give her peace of mind knowing she, "would see her again." I didn't understand, then, how the loss is about that persons physical presence, & the cranial cocktail delivered when it's replaced by absence.

I am curious now: how many people (because it seems unlikely for it to be 0/ 7B+) are not beset by any reaction to such events? Is there something different about their physiology? Are they considered sociopaths?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-08-2015, 12:50 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 11:22 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But no, atheists have to explain how their acceptance of Grandma is gone is somehow, oddly much better than we'll see Grandma again. How sad.

I have no problem with admitting that my grandmother is gone forever. I miss her, certainly, but I am not so immature as to think that the universe gives a damn.

Also, I don't think that it is unreasonable to say that it is better to accept things as they are, rather than to deny reality, and accept a "nicer outcome", even if one is not directly denying reality, but rather denying it indirectly by believes in false version of reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cozzymodo's post
18-08-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 12:09 PM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  I am curious now: how many people (because it seems unlikely for it to be 0/ 7B+) are not beset by any reaction to such events? Is there something different about their physiology? Are they considered sociopaths?

After doing some quick research, one of the characteristics of psychopaths/sociopaths is a lack of emotion to some degree. Also, there is a subclass called primary psychopaths, who's mental state is caused by their genetic makeup, compared to secondary psychopaths, who are a result of their environment. So, seeing as individuals can have a lack of emotions, such as grief, due to their genetic makeup, I'd assume that there is some physiological difference that causes their lack of emotion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-08-2015, 02:22 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 12:09 PM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 08:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  Erm .... ALL the steps occur AFTER the event, when nobody is walking around with cancer anymore or having a rough spot.
I disagree. There are organized meetings for grieving family members of cancer, & other terminally ill patients; even for addicts' families. For any person watching a loved one go through something so arduous is very difficult, & for some others it is as devastating as if their loved one is no longer there.

(17-08-2015 08:06 PM)Dom Wrote:  And if that's not weird enough, you can't control it. Your rationality doesn't have a damn thing to say about it. The sequence can also change.
I agree with you here: ones rationale appears nearly irrelevant. I angered my mother, in my childhood, when I couldn't comprehend why she was sobbing for days, after her Aunt had died. I thought her faith was supposed to comfort her; give her peace of mind knowing she, "would see her again." I didn't understand, then, how the loss is about that persons physical presence, & the cranial cocktail delivered when it's replaced by absence.

I am curious now: how many people (because it seems unlikely for it to be 0/ 7B+) are not beset by any reaction to such events? Is there something different about their physiology? Are they considered sociopaths?

There are many disorders that include emotional detachment. It doesn't necessarily imply a lack of emotion.

Also, if your grandma dies and you aren't touched by it, there can be a myriad of reasons. You may be in a phase of life where your chemical balance is not affected by this much - like puberty can be that way - or the opposite, too. You can be in denial for years - grief can actually strike years after the loss. You may just not have liked her and she took no particular place in your life. You may not have had enough daily interaction to form triggers.

One of the troubles with grief is that people expect others to react in certain ways. Everyone grieves differently and goes through the stages at a different time and sequence. The best you can do when someone is grieving is to validate whatever their reaction is.

Regarding the stages of grief - the quoted stages were written to describe what happens AFTER the event.

That doesn't mean people who watch a loved one die don't need support. It just means that all these stages will be encountered even after the death occurs.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Dom's post
19-08-2015, 02:20 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 11:12 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Maybe you were able to let go of the fear of damnation because you were a genuine born again Christian, and your assurance as such aligns you with the saved.

That's one explanation of what happened; one that involves making a bunch of assumptions that cannot be proven. Really, I've been a very bad Muslim all my life. It's possible I'm going to be in trouble for that, but I'm not making those assumptions.


(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You seem like a pretty nice person and one not wanting to harm his family, others, indulge in grossly sinful behavior, etc. I don't know--you probably are going to Heaven.

I think I am a pretty nice person. It turns out not to be linked to religious beliefs one way or the other.


(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  However, it is my solemn duty to nudge you toward the path as your avowed, active, TTA-posting to criticize all things theist is a contra-indicator.

There's a difference between criticizing and applying an appropriate amount of skepticism.


(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But no, atheists have to explain how their acceptance of Grandma is gone is somehow, oddly much better than we'll see Grandma again. How sad.

While it'd be awesome to know that I'll see my loved ones again, simply wanting it isn't enough to make it true. I deal with what I can know to be true (within reason). Anything else is speculation.

It isn't speculation since we may confirm the scriptures via multiple means including archaeology and fulfilled prophecy. I have every reason to believe and trust the Bible. You have speculation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
19-08-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-08-2015 11:12 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  That's one explanation of what happened; one that involves making a bunch of assumptions that cannot be proven. Really, I've been a very bad Muslim all my life. It's possible I'm going to be in trouble for that, but I'm not making those assumptions.



I think I am a pretty nice person. It turns out not to be linked to religious beliefs one way or the other.



There's a difference between criticizing and applying an appropriate amount of skepticism.



While it'd be awesome to know that I'll see my loved ones again, simply wanting it isn't enough to make it true. I deal with what I can know to be true (within reason). Anything else is speculation.

It isn't speculation since we may confirm the scriptures via multiple means including archaeology and fulfilled prophecy. I have every reason to believe and trust the Bible. You have speculation.

First off, you cannot use prophecy that is both given and then "fulfilled" in the Bible to confirm the inerrancy of the Bible, as you have to assume the inerrancy of the Bible in order to be able to state that the prophecies "fulfilled" in the Bible were actually fulfilled.

Also, archaeology goes against the Biblical record many times. For example, archaeologists have completely excavated Jericho, and found that it had no walls to fall down. In addition, archaeologists have not been able to find any evidence that about 1 million Hebrews were wandering in the wilderness for 40 years after/during the Exodus.

And for bonus issues with the Bible, here are a couple of other issues that are rather difficult to absolve:

  1. Give a timeline of the story of the birth of Jesus that is logically consistent with the accounts given in Matthew and Luke.
  2. What day do the Gospels say that Jesus died in regards to the Passover?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Cozzymodo's post
19-08-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It isn't speculation since we may confirm the scriptures via multiple means including archaeology and fulfilled prophecy.

Archaeology actively contradicts the Bible. Prophecy is invariably worded so poorly that it can be applied to anything.

Not particularly compelling.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Unbeliever's post
19-08-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
"The bible is right".

"Why?"

"Because it says so in the bible".

Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Dom's post
19-08-2015, 05:21 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 03:18 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It isn't speculation since we may confirm the scriptures via multiple means including archaeology and fulfilled prophecy.

Archaeology actively contradicts the Bible. Prophecy is invariably worded so poorly that it can be applied to anything.

Not particularly compelling.

Not to mention the ease of fulfilling some prophecies. How difficult is it to ride into a specific town, on an ass, proclaim you're someone important, & say it's so because of your entrance? These types of prophecies are instructions for a future scam, that's it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: