Five Stages of Grief
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19-08-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 05:21 PM)7R0MM3L Wrote:  
(19-08-2015 03:18 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Archaeology actively contradicts the Bible. Prophecy is invariably worded so poorly that it can be applied to anything.

Not particularly compelling.

Not to mention the ease of fulfilling some prophecies. How difficult is it to ride into a specific town, on an ass, proclaim you're someone important, & say it's so because of your entrance? These types of prophecies are instructions for a future scam, that's it.

And if your smokin' the same stuff as the author of Matthew, you ride into town on an ass and a colt at the same time like you own the place.
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20-08-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
Quote:First off, you cannot use prophecy that is both given and then "fulfilled" in the Bible to confirm the inerrancy of the Bible, as you have to assume the inerrancy of the Bible in order to be able to state that the prophecies "fulfilled" in the Bible were actually fulfilled.

You are partially correct:

1. We can indeed go with such a statement if we discover that the later writers who witnessed the fulfillment of prophecy were honest historians.

2. We can also go with prophecy if we find its fulfillment outside the Bible. For one of any number of examples, that Israel would become a Jewish state after a very long diaspora is both biblical prophecy and easily verifiable. Similar prophecy promises that Israel will be rebirthed or revived in the midst of its enemies. Again, the news almost daily blares these truths to us. I'm therefore grateful to have living proof of the Bible in our day.

Quote:Also, archaeology goes against the Biblical record many times. For example, archaeologists have completely excavated Jericho, and found that it had no walls to fall down. In addition, archaeologists have not been able to find any evidence that about 1 million Hebrews were wandering in the wilderness for 40 years after/during the Exodus.

3. I will have to find the statements online I read where not only was Jericho excavated but it was found to be unique in that the walls had collapsed outward, not inward as would be suggested by an enemy's incursion. God took down the walls as if from a mighty hurricane on high.

4. The archeologists who are not also biblicists are likely off-route. The assumption since the time of Constantine is that Mt. Sinai is inside what is called the Sinai peninsula when Paul says the holy mountain is in Arabia. There is a spot far distant known as Jebel el-Musa, the mountain of Moses. However, I think one of the problems with this atheist canard you are promulgating, which I would hazard to guess you found on some atheist website or book and did not come up with yourself, is that God was exceptionally ticked off at the time and consumed things in a giant pillar of fire. You might as well say there is no Flood since there are only a few written documents about pre-Flood times (since human civilization and documentation was washed away in a global deluge). You cannot have it both ways, I've pointed out as a concrete fact that what is called pre-history (before there were written documents as papyri, stele, etc.) dates to approximately 5,000 years ago--a strong indicator that either people were too stupid to learn how to write and chisel for the first 95,000 years of modern human evolution or else there was a Flood. Either accept my argument from silence or stop pushing "yours"--the one you took off some atheist website. Perhaps you are expecting some items to be unearthed in the desert like ancient yarmulkes or stars of David, neither of which existed back then! Or have you not considered the logical possibility that secular archaeologists have found Mosaic items between Egypt and Israel but have ascribed to them the wrong dates and people, since their chronology is off? Of course, we also both agree that secular archaeologists come to their work with zero agenda and biases but that religious archaeologists are all unfavorably biased, right?

Quote:And for bonus issues with the Bible, here are a couple of other issues that are rather difficult to absolve:

* Give a timeline of the story of the birth of Jesus that is logically consistent with the accounts given in Matthew and Luke.

* What day do the Gospels say that Jesus died in regards to the Passover?

Thanks for shifting the goalposts still more, but no thanks. I personally cared enough to have worked out a harmony of the gospels and even submitted it to that other "genius" website offering a reward without the courtesy of a coherent, logical reply.

The Passover mistakes you have had made for you by people who are lost are also easy to reconcile if you consider things like Christmas Eve and Christmas Day one joint holiday. Think it about it some.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-08-2015, 09:23 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For one of any number of examples, that Israel would become a Jewish state after a very long diaspora is both biblical prophecy and easily verifiable. Similar prophecy promises that Israel will be rebirthed or revived in the midst of its enemies. Again, the news almost daily blares these truths to us. I'm therefore grateful to have living proof of the Bible in our day.

Which still utterly fails to be compelling, given its self-fulfilling nature.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I will have to find the statements online I read where not only was Jericho excavated but it was found to be unique in that the walls had collapsed outward, not inward as would be suggested by an enemy's incursion. God took down the walls as if from a mighty hurricane on high.

This is false.

Jericho had its walls destroyed and rebuilt quite a number of times, apparently by earthquakes. Unless God was quite fond of that particular means of destruction, it is unlikely that he was involved at all - particularly since, at the time of Joshua, Jericho was little more than a pile of ruins to begin with. There is no evidence of a wall around the city during the time of Joshua.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You might as well say there is no Flood since there are only a few written documents about pre-Flood times (since human civilization and documentation was washed away in a global deluge).

No one makes this argument.

We reject the idea of a global flood because it is both nonsensical and entirely unsupported by the evidence.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've pointed out as a concrete fact that what is called pre-history (before there were written documents as papyri, stele, etc.) dates to approximately 5,000 years ago--a strong indicator that either people were too stupid to learn how to write and chisel for the first 95,000 years of modern human evolution or else there was a Flood.

False dichotomy. A written language is a highly complex system which requires quite a lot of infrastructure in place in order to be a profitable time investment in a primitive society. Having neither cause nor precedent makes it rather difficult.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Or have you not considered the logical possibility that secular archaeologists have found Mosaic items between Egypt and Israel but have ascribed to them the wrong dates and people, since their chronology is off?

Archaeological dating methods are largely independent of personal interpretation. The dawn of radiocarbon dating, among other methods, has solved pretty much every question on that front.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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20-08-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(18-08-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The problem for atheists overall is spiritual blindness.

Not for this atheist. I think you simply don't understand spirituality outside of the context of your faith.
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21-08-2015, 05:55 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(19-08-2015 02:20 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It isn't speculation since we may confirm the scriptures via multiple means including archaeology and fulfilled prophecy. I have every reason to believe and trust the Bible. You have speculation.

What about the prophesies fulfilled by the Koran? Did you know that it predicts finger prints, the moon landing, and genetic modification?

I guess we need to start taking that seriously now, too.
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26-08-2015, 12:01 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(20-08-2015 09:23 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  For one of any number of examples, that Israel would become a Jewish state after a very long diaspora is both biblical prophecy and easily verifiable. Similar prophecy promises that Israel will be rebirthed or revived in the midst of its enemies. Again, the news almost daily blares these truths to us. I'm therefore grateful to have living proof of the Bible in our day.

Which still utterly fails to be compelling, given its self-fulfilling nature.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I will have to find the statements online I read where not only was Jericho excavated but it was found to be unique in that the walls had collapsed outward, not inward as would be suggested by an enemy's incursion. God took down the walls as if from a mighty hurricane on high.

This is false.

Jericho had its walls destroyed and rebuilt quite a number of times, apparently by earthquakes. Unless God was quite fond of that particular means of destruction, it is unlikely that he was involved at all - particularly since, at the time of Joshua, Jericho was little more than a pile of ruins to begin with. There is no evidence of a wall around the city during the time of Joshua.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You might as well say there is no Flood since there are only a few written documents about pre-Flood times (since human civilization and documentation was washed away in a global deluge).

No one makes this argument.

We reject the idea of a global flood because it is both nonsensical and entirely unsupported by the evidence.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've pointed out as a concrete fact that what is called pre-history (before there were written documents as papyri, stele, etc.) dates to approximately 5,000 years ago--a strong indicator that either people were too stupid to learn how to write and chisel for the first 95,000 years of modern human evolution or else there was a Flood.

False dichotomy. A written language is a highly complex system which requires quite a lot of infrastructure in place in order to be a profitable time investment in a primitive society. Having neither cause nor precedent makes it rather difficult.

(20-08-2015 08:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Or have you not considered the logical possibility that secular archaeologists have found Mosaic items between Egypt and Israel but have ascribed to them the wrong dates and people, since their chronology is off?

Archaeological dating methods are largely independent of personal interpretation. The dawn of radiocarbon dating, among other methods, has solved pretty much every question on that front.

I don't know you too well yet. Why all the one-sentence dismissals? You aren't going to continue to be as Curt as Chas, are you? You do realize that statements like:

Quote:The dawn of radiocarbon dating, among other methods, has solved pretty much every question on that front...

...would sound almost insanely pompous to anyone who recognizes that science evolves to new understandings, frequently and often.

Quote:Jericho had its walls destroyed and rebuilt quite a number of times, apparently by earthquakes.

Other than the obvious absurdity of denying how the Bible says God would knock the walls of Jericho down rather than by military might by stating emphatically that the Jericho walls fell by earthquake rather than military incursion--I suppose next you will tell me they found a sign on the ruins saying "Jericho, population 3,501. Join our Kiwanis Club." How can you be sure it was the original biblical Jericho. You just admitted you believe the correct Jericho site was rebuilt over time!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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26-08-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why all the one-sentence dismissals?

Because I can say everything that I need to say within that one sentence, and see no need to waste words.

The length of a rebuttal is not necessarily proportional to its validity.

(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You do realize that statements like:

Quote:The dawn of radiocarbon dating, among other methods, has solved pretty much every question on that front...

...would sound almost insanely pompous to anyone who recognizes that science evolves to new understandings, frequently and often.

That is true.

It is also irrelevant, unless you can show that it is going to do so in the field of archaeology and dating.

(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Jericho had its walls destroyed and rebuilt quite a number of times, apparently by earthquakes.

Other than the obvious absurdity of denying how the Bible says God would knock the walls of Jericho down rather than by military might by stating emphatically that the Jericho walls fell by earthquake rather than military incursion--I suppose next you will tell me they found a sign on the ruins saying "Jericho, population 3,501. Join our Kiwanis Club." How can you be sure it was the original biblical Jericho. You just admitted you believe the correct Jericho site was rebuilt over time!

Yes, I did, because it was.

It was rebuilt multiple times. Precisely none of those times were the time of Joshua, at which point Jericho had no walls, and barely any citizenry to speak of.

It would behoove you to actually read the entirety of my posts before responding.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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27-08-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(26-08-2015 12:15 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why all the one-sentence dismissals?

Because I can say everything that I need to say within that one sentence, and see no need to waste words.

The length of a rebuttal is not necessarily proportional to its validity.

(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You do realize that statements like:


...would sound almost insanely pompous to anyone who recognizes that science evolves to new understandings, frequently and often.

That is true.

It is also irrelevant, unless you can show that it is going to do so in the field of archaeology and dating.

(26-08-2015 12:01 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Other than the obvious absurdity of denying how the Bible says God would knock the walls of Jericho down rather than by military might by stating emphatically that the Jericho walls fell by earthquake rather than military incursion--I suppose next you will tell me they found a sign on the ruins saying "Jericho, population 3,501. Join our Kiwanis Club." How can you be sure it was the original biblical Jericho. You just admitted you believe the correct Jericho site was rebuilt over time!

Yes, I did, because it was.

It was rebuilt multiple times. Precisely none of those times were the time of Joshua, at which point Jericho had no walls, and barely any citizenry to speak of.

It would behoove you to actually read the entirety of my posts before responding.

I read the entirety of your posts before responding. After all, it doesn't take long.

Repeating: The Bible says God and not an invading army would tumble Jericho's walls. I bet half of Christians think it was an earthquake that tumbled them--reading the Bible context would inform them so. You are a disbeliever because you feel Jericho's walls fell due to an earthquake(s)?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-08-2015, 09:26 AM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2015 09:41 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Five Stages of Grief
Q - You can argue the other stuff all you want, fine, but the issue of Jericho's "walls" is a settled issue within the world of archaeology. It's one of the oldest cities on earth, and has a long and violent history. Its walls were destroyed several times, and often took long periods of time to be rebuilt. In the time around 1300 BCE, when the Joshua story is reputed to be placed even by conservative Bible scholars (though that event is also dubious at best), there were no walls. It's a good story, but it directly conflicts with things that are well-known from archaeology.

It's very simple: periodically, the city of Jericho would be attacked and burned, and the walls reduced to rubble. It happened several times. It happened before the time of Joshua and stayed rubble (and barely inhabited) throughout that period. Despite what the story claims, it was not a major fortress city during the time the story is considered to have taken place, but it had been rebuilt into a major fortress city by the time of the writers of that Biblical story, which is why they thought it had been that way during the "ancient times" they were describing. It's a story that contains a big "oopsie", that's all.

Whatever other evidence there may or not be for Bible archaeology, that one is not really in any serious contention.

Many people have an emotional attachment to the "Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho and the walls came a-tumblin' down" story, but it simply is not reality.

Edit to Add: I have the horrible feeling we're about to have to deal with the BS contentions by Answers In Genesis' member Bryant G. Wood, from his much-disproved (but loved by Creationists) hypothesis about the walls sliding down the embankment, from the early 90s. Freakin' AiG. Angry

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-08-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating: The Bible says God and not an invading army would tumble Jericho's walls. I bet half of Christians think it was an earthquake that tumbled them--reading the Bible context would inform them so. You are a disbeliever because you feel Jericho's walls fell due to an earthquake(s)?

No. I reject the story because there were no walls around Jericho at the time of Joshua.

This really isn't complicated.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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