Five Stages of Grief
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27-08-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
Unbeliever -

Technically, I suppose it would be better stated, by both of us, "...at the time of Ramses", since there is evidence of Ramses outside of the story-book, but not of Joshua. Heh.

I actually ran into one Christian apologist site that admitted that Wood's claim was bogus, but then tried to claim that it still didn't prove the tale was false... because they claim it happened 1000 years earlier, at a time when the walls were up and the city that has been identified as Ai would also have been inhabited.

Except that totally leaves out the rest of what the story says about the rulers of Egypt at the time. It's just basically a bad, ad hoc story made up by people hundreds of years later who had no way to access the archaeological record, and that should be obvious to anyone who investigates this honestly.

There's still the major problem of the fact that at the time of Ramses, the Egyptian empire owned the entire region of Canaan to which the Hebrew slaves supposedly fled, the equivalent of "We fled from the United States to build our promised land in Alaska!"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-08-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 11:15 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I actually ran into one Christian apologist site that admitted that Wood's claim was bogus, but then tried to claim that it still didn't prove the tale was false... because they claim it happened 1000 years earlier, at a time when the walls were up and the city that has been identified as Ai would also have been inhabited.

Except that totally leaves out the rest of what the story says about the rulers of Egypt at the time. It's just basically a bad, ad hoc story made up by people hundreds of years later who had no way to access the archaeological record, and that should be obvious to anyone who investigates this honestly.

Quite. But some people are so desperate to try and reconcile the two that they don't even realize the amount of doublethink required in order to force the connection.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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27-08-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 09:26 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Q - You can argue the other stuff all you want, fine, but the issue of Jericho's "walls" is a settled issue within the world of archaeology. It's one of the oldest cities on earth, and has a long and violent history. Its walls were destroyed several times, and often took long periods of time to be rebuilt. In the time around 1300 BCE, when the Joshua story is reputed to be placed even by conservative Bible scholars (though that event is also dubious at best), there were no walls. It's a good story, but it directly conflicts with things that are well-known from archaeology.

It's very simple: periodically, the city of Jericho would be attacked and burned, and the walls reduced to rubble. It happened several times. It happened before the time of Joshua and stayed rubble (and barely inhabited) throughout that period. Despite what the story claims, it was not a major fortress city during the time the story is considered to have taken place, but it had been rebuilt into a major fortress city by the time of the writers of that Biblical story, which is why they thought it had been that way during the "ancient times" they were describing. It's a story that contains a big "oopsie", that's all.

Whatever other evidence there may or not be for Bible archaeology, that one is not really in any serious contention.

Many people have an emotional attachment to the "Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho and the walls came a-tumblin' down" story, but it simply is not reality.

Edit to Add: I have the horrible feeling we're about to have to deal with the BS contentions by Answers In Genesis' member Bryant G. Wood, from his much-disproved (but loved by Creationists) hypothesis about the walls sliding down the embankment, from the early 90s. Freakin' AiG. Angry

I don't feel the need to do so. I only feel the need to point out what should be obvious to you as a person who uses deductive logic. If walls came down and stood in crumbles where they fell in ancient times, and then the walls were rebuilt by subsequent inhabitants, what is that you expect modern archaeologists to discover?

Because, logically, the materials of the former walls would be absorbed into the construction of the new walls.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-08-2015, 12:48 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 10:50 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating: The Bible says God and not an invading army would tumble Jericho's walls. I bet half of Christians think it was an earthquake that tumbled them--reading the Bible context would inform them so. You are a disbeliever because you feel Jericho's walls fell due to an earthquake(s)?

No. I reject the story because there were no walls around Jericho at the time of Joshua.

This really isn't complicated.

You believe that Joshua was an historical figure? Honestly?

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27-08-2015, 04:04 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 10:50 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  No. I reject the story because there were no walls around Jericho at the time of Joshua.

This really isn't complicated.

You believe that Joshua was an historical figure? Honestly?

Not really, no. And if you're going to dodge an issue, you might try to do so less blatantly.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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28-08-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(27-08-2015 04:04 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(27-08-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You believe that Joshua was an historical figure? Honestly?

Not really, no. And if you're going to dodge an issue, you might try to do so less blatantly.

Sorry, but if you have no evidence regarding a biblical Joshua, how did you fix the time period from among multiple Jericho builds as to where the Joshua story occurred?

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28-08-2015, 09:16 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(28-08-2015 08:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Sorry, but if you have no evidence regarding a biblical Joshua, how did you fix the time period from among multiple Jericho builds as to where the Joshua story occurred?

I don't. Biblical chronologists do. According to the timeline established by the Bible story, Joshua lived from roughly 1355-1245 BCE, which is the late Bronze Age.

There were no walls around Jericho during the late Bronze Age.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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28-08-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(28-08-2015 09:16 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 08:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Sorry, but if you have no evidence regarding a biblical Joshua, how did you fix the time period from among multiple Jericho builds as to where the Joshua story occurred?

I don't. Biblical chronologists do. According to the timeline established by the Bible story, Joshua lived from roughly 1355-1245 BCE, which is the late Bronze Age.

There were no walls around Jericho during the late Bronze Age.

Repeating, there is a simple explanation:

If walls came down and stood in crumbles where they fell in ancient times, and then the walls were rebuilt by subsequent inhabitants, what is that you expect modern archaeologists to discover? Because, logically, the materials of the former walls would be absorbed into the construction of the new walls.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-08-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(28-08-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating, there is a simple explanation:

If walls came down and stood in crumbles where they fell in ancient times, and then the walls were rebuilt by subsequent inhabitants, what is that you expect modern archaeologists to discover? Because, logically, the materials of the former walls would be absorbed into the construction of the new walls.

You do realize that archaeology has long since had the ability to tell when this happened, yes?

In the case of Jericho, it did not. This was, in fact, one of the things that the explicitly Christian archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon was actively searching for during her excavation.

It was not there.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-09-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Five Stages of Grief
(28-08-2015 09:42 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating, there is a simple explanation:

If walls came down and stood in crumbles where they fell in ancient times, and then the walls were rebuilt by subsequent inhabitants, what is that you expect modern archaeologists to discover? Because, logically, the materials of the former walls would be absorbed into the construction of the new walls.

You do realize that archaeology has long since had the ability to tell when this happened, yes?

In the case of Jericho, it did not. This was, in fact, one of the things that the explicitly Christian archaeologist Kathleen Kenyon was actively searching for during her excavation.

It was not there.

Again, and I apologize for parodying the classical position, was there a sign "Welcome to Jericho. Population 6,000." How was the location of Jericho fixed? If it was the biblical Jericho, do you understand the problems inherent in a dig on a site that has multiple builds and rebuilds?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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