Flat earth
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29-08-2014, 05:59 AM
RE: Flat earth
They claim it isn't religion based, but the flawed processes they use to come to their erroneous views closely mirror that of young-Earth-creationists.
They both use the "scientific conspiracy" as an excuse when the evidence becomes overwhelming. It's like their little umbrella that protects them from reality.

The tree of delusion is nourished by the vague promises and skewed perception of prayer. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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29-08-2014, 06:52 AM
RE: Flat earth
In the case of religious attachment to this idea I think the problem is credulity rather than scepticism.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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29-08-2014, 06:58 AM
RE: Flat earth
(29-08-2014 05:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  They are certainly non-rational. Why 'pre-rational'?

Because they do have a psycology that's describeable as a particular stage of development, and it's the stage just before rational thinking emerges. This psychology does have a rationale to it's thinking, even if it's a more elemental thinking style than fully abstract reasoning.

In Piaget's stages, Concrete Operational is "pre-rational", and Formal operational is "rational".


[Image: piaget2.gif]


Quote:Do you expect them to wake up one day with newly installed cognitive abilities? Consider

It is quite possible, each stage of development is an emergent property of the previous stage, so a shift between stages is usually quite abrupt, even though it may then take quite a few years to fully develop the particular thinking skills of that new stage.

For example - I can remember the precise moment in my childhood when the first Formal Operational insight arrived (I grokked the concept of infinity), the reason the memory sticks is because it was quite an abrupt and sudden waking up to a new understanding of reality.

Quote:This isn't skepticism, it's bloody-mindedness. Skeptics accept evidence.

Everyone accepts evidence, but only that evidence which is meaningful from their developmental perspective.

A pre-rational thinker is welded into his subjective experience. You as a rational thinker know that it's just as true to say that you're standing on top of the planet (the sky is up) as it is to say you are hanging upside down off the bottom of the planet (the sky is down). A pre-rational thinker would find that claim patently ludicrous and self-evidently false. He's welded to the sensory experience which is telling him that sky is "up" and the ground is "down". He won't be able to see he's wrong, if he accepts the round earth theory he'll be doing it on faith, perhaps because the idea comes from someone he trusts.

Quote:
Quote:Does not look quite so pretty as our rational worldview skepticism, does it?

Actually - I am a particularly skeptical skeptic, but this does expose a potential hazard of skepticism if I become too skeptical and not open-minded enough.

How will my rational worldview scepticism look in 100 years time?

Phil

Skepticism will be alive and healthy in 100 years, probably more widespread than today.

Don't confuse the stance with what one is skeptical of.

Agreed, I'm not arguing against skepticism, although i do think it likely that many of the things we are currently skeptical of will appear in 100 years time as round earth skepticism. This isn't a call to abandon skepticism but just a call to keep a degree of openness and not be too dismissive of things that don't fit easily within our current knowings.

Phil
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29-08-2014, 06:59 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2014 07:04 AM by phil.a.)
RE: Flat earth
(29-08-2014 05:59 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  They claim it isn't religion based, but the flawed processes they use to come to their erroneous views closely mirror that of young-Earth-creationists.
They both use the "scientific conspiracy" as an excuse when the evidence becomes overwhelming. It's like their little umbrella that protects them from reality.

Interesting, I think that kind of supports my earlier post.

This is Concrete Operational thinking.

Incidentally - this has probably happened because someone somewhere told them that it's good to be skeptical! People at Concrete Operational levels of development are by their nature very compliant and susceptible to accepting truths that are fed to them by those they perceive as an authority.

In this case, it would surely be better that they did!

Time for some skepticism of skepticism (perhaps it's only really a valuable asset to people at rational levels of psychological development).

Phil
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29-08-2014, 07:03 AM
RE: Flat earth
(29-08-2014 06:58 AM)phil.a Wrote:  
(29-08-2014 05:47 AM)Chas Wrote:  They are certainly non-rational. Why 'pre-rational'?

Because they do have a psycology that's describeable as a particular stage of development, and it's the stage just before rational thinking emerges. This psychology does have a rationale to it's thinking, even if it's a more elemental thinking style than fully abstract reasoning.

In Piaget's stages, Concrete Operational is "pre-rational", and Formal operational is "rational".


[Image: piaget2.gif]

You are arguing that they have arrested development and think like children. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-08-2014, 07:22 AM
RE: Flat earth
(29-08-2014 07:03 AM)Chas Wrote:  You are arguing that they have arrested development and think like children. Consider

Yes!

Only - it's more the other way around, it's rather that you have a privileged level of development. I believe globally, only around 25% of adult humans ever make it to Formal Operational (rational) levels of development.

It also varies by country - any country that is for example a theocracy can be assumed to lack a critical mass of rational thinkers.

Religious fundamentalism is itself - a pre-rational perspective. As you may have noticed, not all religious people are intolerant bigots, a key thing that separates those who are from those who aren't is levels of psychological development.

Phil
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29-08-2014, 07:35 AM
RE: Flat earth
I actually Favorited this, so next time a creationist goes to a evolution conspiracy I can say all those without evidence run to the conspiracy excuse, and these flat earthers show it.

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30-08-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: Flat earth
(29-04-2014 10:23 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Several members of supreme islamic counclis in Saudi Arabia frequently announce that the earth is flat.

and people wonder why aliens aren't trying to make contact with us Facepalm
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