Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
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14-06-2015, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2015 08:03 AM by Tonechaser77.)
Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
Normally I can keep my mouth shut (or in this case my hands from typing) but when I read this article on my Flipboard app, i could no longer remain silent.

Here was the title of the article: Let No one deceive you, homosexuality is absolutely demonic and it's so evil that god abandons those who partake in it.

At this point I made the following comment and a discussion ensued which I am posting. I am doing this because I want to review as well as have others review the points I brought up so I can better equip myself for these types of situations.

Kyle: I don’t even have to read this article; the title alone is enough to make my blood boil. Really people, if you’d get your head out of your arse and the 2,000 year old book you are special pleading from, start to treat other humans with decency, love and respect, you just may set that whacked out moral compass of yours straight.

Here is the rest of the discussion that came after my comment (I would appreciate constructive criticism, other points I could have made, points I made incorrectly, etc):

B –
Kyle, the bible says to love. Just because people say that homosexuality is okay doesn’t mean it’s okay. Just because people are against it doesn’t mean they hate homosexuals. You should try reading the bible instead of maligning it. Christ came to tell us that there is only one way and it’s through him. He didn’t come to create peace but division. It is one way or the other. You have a choice, but regardless of the choice, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Kyle -
B, the god of your bible allegedly created one of the most controversial mishandled confusing books in the history of mankind. He is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction: jealous and proud of it, petty, unjust, unforgiving, controlling, vindictive, blood-thirsty, an ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist; infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. I’ll take my moral compass over that book any day of the week.

B -
Where do you get your morals from Kyle? Why is right and wrong innate to us all? If evolution is true then why/how did morals even evolve? If all we are doing is living and dying what’s the point of having a conscience? The bible says that God wrote his law onto mans hearts. God loves you and wants you to know him. He is giving you a choice so that you will be without excuse.

Kyle -
B why do you assume that just because a book says something it is true? And please don’t tell me it’s because God says in his word that “it” is true. That’s just a circular argument, the basic of all logical fallacies. Just because you want it all to be true or can’t comprehend it any other way, doesn’t make it correct. There is no single answer to where our morals come from. Moral behavior (if not moral sentiments) can be exhibited by non-human animals. And evolutionary models such as R. Trivers’ theory of reciprocal altruism show how moral behavior and cooperation could have evolved (I’d suggest checking out The Evolution of Cooperation by W.D. Hamilton and R. Axelrod for a good intro). The book discusses, among other things, the iterated Prisoner’s dilemma tournament that Axlerod, a political scientist, organized.
On the other hand moral codes have progressed throughout history far too quickly to be accounted for in evolutionary (genetic) terms. For instance, no one can seriously believe that humans had literally evolved when Congress passed civil rights legislation, ended slavery, or granted women’s suffrage. Most likely, we are born with certain hard-wired moral tendencies (heavily favoring the in-group, most especially our own kin) and these tendencies are gradually supplemented, refined and extended to other groups through development of social institutions and new types of moral reasoning. But just because we are hard-wired doesn’t mean one can claim god-done-it. The god of the gaps argument has done nothing but shrink the more we learn through science.
I was a hardcore fundamentalist for 30 years. I have heard argument after argument, I’ve studied the greatest apologists, and in the end for me, there just isn’t enough evidence. However, I respect your decision to believe in a god even though I do not. You just need to do your homework and know what you are believing.

B –
God has revealed himself to me in many ways Kyle. I believe that if you are serious about wanting to know the truth god can and will reveal himself to you. You have to be willing to accept the truth.

Kyle -
B, anecdotal evidence is the worst way to reveal yourself to someone else. Some people who are seriously searching may never find. A god who would love everyone would certainly not want to remain hidden if he truly desired a relationship with all. Besides, how to do you prove that it is god revealing himself to you and not your confirmation bias? Are you familiar with confirmation bias? Do some google searches. This will help explain how and why the brain continues to trick us.

B -
Kyle what is it about Christianity that you dislike so much? Is it because there are rules and expected behaviors? Is it because you can’t just do what you want because it’s right? Have you studied the bible? I cannot comprehend how so many people are quick to believe in a theory that said all that we see in nature has come about through happenstance. Why is there so much diversity in the world? Why are so many different species that all happened to evolve into some that procreates after it’s kind?

Kyle -
B it has nothing to do with me disliking Christianity. I’ve studied the facts, I’ve studied the theories, I’ve studied the arguments. The majority are based on logical fallacies which it sounds like you are not familiar with since you are using them in your arguments and reasoning. I did the same thing for years so I get it. It has nothing to do with rules and expected behaviors. You’ve circled back around to moral ground argument and it’s flawed. You do not need religion to be moral, see my previous comments above. You are misrepresenting evolution by your comments. If you study it, your questions will be answered.
And yes, I’ve studied the bible. I studied it for 20 years. Intensely. And even more intensely in the last two years. It wasn’t until I took my god glasses off and started reading the bible for what it really was that I could see how awful much of it was. Why would a loving god allow such things and order such things to happen to people? The truth is, he didn’t. I see the bible now for what it really is. An ancient book written by humans with little knowledge of how the world and cosmos work. They could not explain things so they threw god in those gaps. Now that we have the process of science, which isn’t perfect, but it’s the best thing we have for answers, we have closed those gaps. God does not explain those gaps. I realize this will truly fall on deaf ears. You will continue in your ways until you stop to ask the difficult questions and search for truth. And I mean truly search. It won’t be until you jettison your preconceived notions and decide to let the answers lead you where they may, not where you want them to.

B -
Kyle, what gaps are you talking about?

Kyle
B- A god of the gaps argument is an argument from ignorance: it boils down to "We do not know how X happened, therefore X was caused by a god." However, ignorance is never an argument for something. It merely means we do not (yet) know the cause of the phenomenon.
To see why this argument is a fallacy, we can consider similar arguments could have been made at different points in human history:
2000 years ago: "We do not know what causes lightning, therefore it must be a god throwing lightning bolts from the sky."
1000 years ago: "We do not know what keeps the planets in their courses. There must be angels pushing them along."
500 years ago: "We do not know what causes diseases, therefore they must be punishments from God."
200 years ago: "We do not know how the many species of plants and animals could have appeared, therefore God must have created them."
100 years ago: "We do not know how the universe started, therefore God must have done it."
60 years ago: "We do not know how genes are passed from parent to child, therefore traits must be imprinted upon the soul."
As new explanations emerge, the gaps in our knowledge shrink, leaving less and less room in which to fit a god. Since human knowledge keeps growing all the time, it does not seem like a safe bet to assume that any given gap will remain one for very long.

B –
I’m sorry you feel that way kyle. Most of my experiences with atheists have been negative. Usually something has happened in their lives that left them bitter toward God. Most of them aren’t even scientists yet they speak as if they are. There is a certain amount of anger behind their attitude toward God and those who believe. Just because people give credit to God when they don’t understand something doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exsit when they find out how something works. Take lightning for instance, no where in the bible does it say that god throws lightning bolts but if I remember correctly it does say that he directs the path of lightning. Interesting choice of words since there is a path that lightning follows before it strikes.

Kyle
B – I can’t control the bad experiences you’ve had with atheists. I can only influence your attitude with the atheist you are communicating with at this moment. The fact that you say something has happened to atheists to leave them bitter towards God is a misrepresentation of what they have told you. A person cannot be angry at a being they don’t believe exists. This misrepresentation is called a straw man fallacy. By fabricating someone else's argument it makes it easier for you to tear it down and build your own. Atheists are angry at religion and how it causes people to focus on what cannot even be proven to exist. They are angry that rational sentient beings hold irrational beliefs when their focus could be on making the best out of the hear and now and what we have at our fingertips. They are angry at the pain and divide that religion causes. You may argue that it causes much good but keep in mind all that good an be done WITHOUT religion.
Also, you don’t have to be a scientist to understand how science works, you just have to educate yourself. Read, read, read. And as to the comment about he bible and lightning, well it also claims that the moon gives light. Um….ya, no it doesn’t. It is a dark rock that reflects light from the sun. It does not give it’s own light. You see you can’t have your cake and eat it. If they mentioned the lightning point and it was correct and the moon issue is incorrect, then what gives? The same people that wrote the bible also believed that it was okay to kill their kids and offer them up to the gods as a sacrifice. The bible doesn’t tell us that there is one god. It says there are many. Do you believe in any of those other gods? No, I doubt it. Therefore you are an atheist too. I just believe in one less god that you do.
The people that wrote the bible also thought that the earth was flat and that there was a dome above them (firmament) which had little pin holes of light (stars). They believed there was an ocean above the firmament and when it rained, this was the act of the gods opening windows and letting rain in. Does this sound like something you believe now? This is another example of what we know from science filling in the gaps of what they didn’t know and declared it done by gods. I would encourage you to step out of the shadow of the bible and learn the history and time that it was written in. This will help frame your understanding. Also check out http://www.knowyourfallacy.com.
All the best to you!

**Crickets** -- God
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14-06-2015, 06:16 AM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
Gawd strewth these people are fuckwits. Why are they so obsessed with homosexuality???

Hidden personal desires? Trying too hard to remain in the closet?

Having worked in entertainment all my adult life I have come to know many gay and lesbian people. Aside from a few most have been great. One of my best friends, the great Australian dance choreographer Ross Coleman was as bent as a dogs hind leg, proud of it to a fault, and one of the most decent people I ever met. Dead now, sadly. I miss him so. Freaking AIDS!!!

These hate mongers disgust me and I think they are among the most vile people on earth. Why don't they just join ISIS and be done with it?!!!

Sorry for the rant.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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14-06-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
I think you did a great job. Your responses were succinct but right on point. I find it fascinating how B kept changing the subject and really avoided responding to much of anything you said. Everything that confronted his beliefs was deflected and is why talking to theists can be so frustrating. You kept your cool better than I probably would have.

If I were to criticize anything it would be at this point:
(14-06-2015 06:10 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  And as to the comment about he bible and lightning, well it also claims that the move gives light.

I think you allowed him to redirect you. You were making the point that people once believed that gods actually hurled lightning and he said that the bible didn't say that and that was irrelevant. The point was that the god explanation had been used to fill a gap in knowledge, not that Christianity used that exact plug. Personally, I'd also not use the moon/light issue as I think the wording is vague enough to allow a reflector to count. On the other hand, if the moon was created to rule the night why does it so often appear in the daytime instead?

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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14-06-2015, 08:02 AM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
Unfogged, ok great points. Thank you. I will say this, there was no strategy on my part. If I would have taken a 10,000 ft view I think I may have seen this. I was just answering questions as they came and asking my own.

**Crickets** -- God
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14-06-2015, 08:58 AM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
the fogless one has already covered the thoughts I had.

(although he didn't mention your two spelling mistakes. I noticed two also from your opponent, so that's a draw).

On lightning ... god dun it ... in Job.
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lightning

The bouncing from topic to topic was bewildering. There was no attempt to address your points. I too admire your patience but I wonder why you let B get away with that...

I don't know what Flipboard is but if it's a publicly viewable thing, your approach was valuable as your answers may help other readers to see the light (so to speak).

If it's a private thing between the two of you, I think the Boghossian approach of targeting 'faith' as a flawed epistemology would have been more beneficial for this exchange and that individual (eventually).

Good job, though. I found myself nodding and smiling as I read your replies.

Thumbsup

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14-06-2015, 12:07 PM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
(14-06-2015 08:58 AM)DLJ Wrote:  the fogless one has already covered the thoughts I had.

(although he didn't mention your two spelling mistakes. I noticed two also from your opponent, so that's a draw).

On lightning ... god dun it ... in Job.
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Lightning

The bouncing from topic to topic was bewildering. There was no attempt to address your points. I too admire your patience but I wonder why you let B get away with that...

I don't know what Flipboard is but if it's a publicly viewable thing, your approach was valuable as your answers may help other readers to see the light (so to speak).

If it's a private thing between the two of you, I think the Boghossian approach of targeting 'faith' as a flawed epistemology would have been more beneficial for this exchange and that individual (eventually).

Good job, though. I found myself nodding and smiling as I read your replies.

Thumbsup

It was a public forum. There were other people conversing as well so people will see it. Flipboard is an app that provides news articles to your phone based on the subjects of your choosing. If you like the article or don't like it you can flip it onto your own board where the people following you can read it as well and comment.
As for the patience factor, I only have it because I know what it took for me to come out of the darkness as a fundamentalist. People respond differently to different tactics I guess.
My spelling errors: Facepalm I know. It's difficult to type that much information on a phone and not be able to scroll back up through what you've typed to see if there are any spelling, grammatical, syntax errors. Undecided Frankly I'm surprised there were only two. haha

**Crickets** -- God
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16-06-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
I think it's important to present atheism as a thought process rather than as the reactionary thing theists tend to assume that it is. Case in point, my wife, to my delight, corrected my fundamentalist sister in law the other day when my sister in law expressed concern that I was an atheist because I have become bitter because of life experiences. My wife corrected her, saying no, I'm not bitter at all. Rather, my life experiences prompted me to rethink my position. And that is EXACTLY what happened.

Unfortunately the fact that unbelief in deities is not an emotionally-based fact, does not mean that it is a decision entirely devoid of emotion, either. I can't claim that my INITIAL departure from the faith wasn't in part an abreaction to the existential pain and disappointment that my faith was causing me. And like you, I can't claim not to be disgusted with the hate mongering of a lot of theist ideology.

What I try to do, to the extent possible, is to enter discussions like this as matter of factly and unemotionally as possible, but like you, that's not always how it goes down. The problem of course is that then they try to portray themselves as the voice of reason, trying to get you to calm down and quit being "so angry" and that becomes a distraction.
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17-06-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
(14-06-2015 06:16 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Why are they so obsessed with homosexuality???

Hidden personal desires? Trying too hard to remain in the closet?

I think it's because this is a culture war they are rapidly losing, and they know it. They're trying to remain relevant, and in the process are showing how little they know and how much they hate.
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17-06-2015, 01:18 PM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
Good job Tonechaser. I really enjoyed that.

I think you approached that very well. B on the other hand was a carbon copy conversationalist. He responded just how he was told to respond. Questions that are repeated time and time again as if there going to get people cornered.

And with a title like Let No one deceive you, homosexuality is absolutely demonic and it's so evil that god abandons those who partake in it.
How can he even say
Quote:B - Just because people are against it doesn’t mean they hate homosexuals.

I would say that calling a Homosexual Absolutely Demonic could fall in the definition of Hate.

Ugh. Just makes my blood boil.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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18-06-2015, 03:08 AM
RE: Flipboard discussion on LGBT article
Always with the "mad at God". Dude was a great example for pointing out fallacies.

Nice though, and as others have said, nice patience.
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