Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
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07-08-2012, 10:55 AM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
You'd think that something that could create the universe could get rid of the wicked or impure through a more precise approach than a massive flood.
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07-08-2012, 02:59 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(07-08-2012 10:55 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  You'd think that something that could create the universe could get rid of the wicked or impure through a more precise approach than a massive flood.

Surely, but a flood is just so cool.Dodgy

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07-08-2012, 08:25 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(07-08-2012 05:13 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  
(07-08-2012 05:10 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  I'm an atheist, Red Celt. I don't believe God is genocidal because I don't believe he's existent. This is a thought experiment that assumes the truth of the bible on the flood account.

Yes, but... the inundation story is stolen... so... even a believer would... oh, never mind.

Dodgy

Go back to a debate about the colour of a unicorn's horn.

There's a reason that I don't ever bother with the whole "mythology" angle... even though it seems like the bible stole from other cultures, there's absolutely no way to prove it. Take the epic of Gilgamesh, as you have... the flood myth appears to have been written with this in mind. But correlation doesn't prove causation. Logically, it's possible that it's just a coincidence that they both sound similar, or it's possible that they sprang from another source... which appears to actually be the case. We have scientific support for a large flood in the Middle East thousands of years ago. Ever wonder why the "Fertile Crescent" is mostly sand? It's likely that a huge flood totally wrecked that whole area. And what would follow would be several myths based on that event, such as the myths of Gilgamesh and Noah.

Or the Noah story was a plagiarism. There's simply no way to be certain.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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07-08-2012, 09:16 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
On the subject of why the angels didn't just come back to Earth to breed with women after the Flood: I heard somewhere along my little adventures in religion that God forbade the angels from interacting with human beings anymore after that. Like, he somehow stripped them of their ability to really do anything if they came down here. But, then we go back to the question of why he didn't have something like that in place to begin with to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening at all, so now we're going in circles!

I'd have to go look and see if the Bible actually says something to that tune, though. I don't remember anything specifically like that myself, but it's been a while since I really sat down and read the book, so I may just be forgetting what was said, or where. Or, it could be just someone else's idea of why it didn't happen again.
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07-08-2012, 10:54 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(07-08-2012 09:16 PM)SlipStitch Wrote:  On the subject of why the angels didn't just come back to Earth to breed with women after the Flood: I heard somewhere along my little adventures in religion that God forbade the angels from interacting with human beings anymore after that. Like, he somehow stripped them of their ability to really do anything if they came down here. But, then we go back to the question of why he didn't have something like that in place to begin with to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening at all, so now we're going in circles!

I'd have to go look and see if the Bible actually says something to that tune, though. I don't remember anything specifically like that myself, but it's been a while since I really sat down and read the book, so I may just be forgetting what was said, or where. Or, it could be just someone else's idea of why it didn't happen again.

I'm pretty familiar with the bible, and I don't recall any such command from God forbidding angel contact. Plus there are stories where angels interacted with humans after that point, such as angels visiting Lot in Sodom and the angels waiting at the empty tomb in the New Testament (although that's not quite the same "human interaction" as before the flood).

It's a great point you made, asking why God wouldn't just prevent angels from such contact if He could or would decide to do it afterwards.

Another thing that always bothered me about this story is that God is supposedly the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and yet He allegedly did this one act that He promised never to do again. Was that because He immediately regretted it? Or did His nature change after the flood? I don't understand the logic of this being a good idea, but a bad idea if repeated.

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08-08-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(07-08-2012 10:54 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(07-08-2012 09:16 PM)SlipStitch Wrote:  On the subject of why the angels didn't just come back to Earth to breed with women after the Flood: I heard somewhere along my little adventures in religion that God forbade the angels from interacting with human beings anymore after that. Like, he somehow stripped them of their ability to really do anything if they came down here. But, then we go back to the question of why he didn't have something like that in place to begin with to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening at all, so now we're going in circles!

I'd have to go look and see if the Bible actually says something to that tune, though. I don't remember anything specifically like that myself, but it's been a while since I really sat down and read the book, so I may just be forgetting what was said, or where. Or, it could be just someone else's idea of why it didn't happen again.

I'm pretty familiar with the bible, and I don't recall any such command from God forbidding angel contact. Plus there are stories where angels interacted with humans after that point, such as angels visiting Lot in Sodom and the angels waiting at the empty tomb in the New Testament (although that's not quite the same "human interaction" as before the flood).

It's a great point you made, asking why God wouldn't just prevent angels from such contact if He could or would decide to do it afterwards.

Another thing that always bothered me about this story is that God is supposedly the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow and yet He allegedly did this one act that He promised never to do again. Was that because He immediately regretted it? Or did His nature change after the flood? I don't understand the logic of this being a good idea, but a bad idea if repeated.

Well, he always knew that he always had to do it and always had a reason and always was only going to do it once and always ...

Wait, what was the question?

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08-08-2012, 09:58 AM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(07-08-2012 08:25 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(07-08-2012 05:13 AM)Red Celt Wrote:  Yes, but... the inundation story is stolen... so... even a believer would... oh, never mind.

Dodgy

Go back to a debate about the colour of a unicorn's horn.

There's a reason that I don't ever bother with the whole "mythology" angle... even though it seems like the bible stole from other cultures, there's absolutely no way to prove it. Take the epic of Gilgamesh, as you have... the flood myth appears to have been written with this in mind. But correlation doesn't prove causation. Logically, it's possible that it's just a coincidence that they both sound similar, or it's possible that they sprang from another source... which appears to actually be the case. We have scientific support for a large flood in the Middle East thousands of years ago. Ever wonder why the "Fertile Crescent" is mostly sand? It's likely that a huge flood totally wrecked that whole area. And what would follow would be several myths based on that event, such as the myths of Gilgamesh and Noah.

Or the Noah story was a plagiarism. There's simply no way to be certain.

Please cite a reference for your evidence of a flood in the Middle East.

Climate change explains the desertification of North Africa and the Middle East.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-08-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
The Flood was a failed genocide. He didn't kill all evil.

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08-08-2012, 06:25 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
(08-08-2012 09:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2012 08:25 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  There's a reason that I don't ever bother with the whole "mythology" angle... even though it seems like the bible stole from other cultures, there's absolutely no way to prove it. Take the epic of Gilgamesh, as you have... the flood myth appears to have been written with this in mind. But correlation doesn't prove causation. Logically, it's possible that it's just a coincidence that they both sound similar, or it's possible that they sprang from another source... which appears to actually be the case. We have scientific support for a large flood in the Middle East thousands of years ago. Ever wonder why the "Fertile Crescent" is mostly sand? It's likely that a huge flood totally wrecked that whole area. And what would follow would be several myths based on that event, such as the myths of Gilgamesh and Noah.

Or the Noah story was a plagiarism. There's simply no way to be certain.

Please cite a reference for your evidence of a flood in the Middle East.

Climate change explains the desertification of North Africa and the Middle East.

It's funny how you ask for a citation, then make your own assertion about the cause (uncited). Climate change, as we typically understand that phrase today, didn't happen before the Industrial Revolution -- and for that I would cite the graph of carbon trapped in Antarctic Ice that Al Gore displayed for An Inconvenient Truth, although it should be common sense.

I perhaps should have said that we have "scientific hypotheses" for a flood in the fertile crescent, although I did use my usual uncertain language ("which appears to actually be the case", "it's likely that a...") in case I was wrong, which is easy when you're talking about ancient history.

Whether or not there was a real flood is kinda beside the point, unless you planned to pass that information on yourself as fact -- it was just a further explanation of the logical fallacy behind assuming correlation means causation.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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08-08-2012, 10:43 PM
RE: Flood Genocide and Idiotic Engineering
The god of the Bible always kind of struck me as having some mental issues. Or he's at least very indecisive. Makes you wonder how "old" this god is supposed to be. It's almost like he's trying to figure out his role as if he were new to it or something and has temper tantrums like a kid when things don't go his way, then he feels guilty about it later and tries to make nice again.

Didn't the area around where most of the Bible took place used to get monsoon rains that no longer come anymore? Could explain why there was such a terrible flood, if there ever really was one. Maybe they just got too much rain that year. Something like that would need some further research, though. I only just heard something about it in passing somewhere. A documentary, I think.
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