Flouride in the water.
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24-05-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
So actually swallowing it and absorbing it into your body is good for teeth enamel?

If that is the case why are people not advised to swallow toothpaste?

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24-05-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 03:09 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Meh the rate at which the body throws off the excess fluoride is far greater than what we ingest. You would have to drink an insane amount of water to even begin to poison yourself.

Any links to this so I can have a read please?

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24-05-2013, 04:24 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 03:17 PM)bemore Wrote:  
(24-05-2013 03:09 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Meh the rate at which the body throws off the excess fluoride is far greater than what we ingest. You would have to drink an insane amount of water to even begin to poison yourself.

Any links to this so I can have a read please?

Sure.

http://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_co.../l-3/2.htm

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24-05-2013, 05:15 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 03:15 PM)bemore Wrote:  So actually swallowing it and absorbing it into your body is good for teeth enamel?

If that is the case why are people not advised to swallow toothpaste?

Consentrated levels; there is waaay more fluoride in toothpaste than in drinking water. But the fluoride in toothpaste doesn't last long, which is why dentists say to brush after anytime you eat...Or at the minimum of twice a day.

Same reason if you live in a area that adds fluoride to their water, you don't take the fluoride tablets which are chewed and swallowed.


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24-05-2013, 06:26 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2013 06:31 PM by Luminon.)
RE: Flouride in the water.
There is a professor Anna Strunecka who did a research into this. She is a concerned scientist of great renown and academic career who looks into some controversial topics.

What I gathered from her lecture... When she was at USA, she asked why is the water fluoridated. She said it is not economically feasible. Too expensive. The answer she got... Fluoride is produced as a waste during processing nuclear fuel and weapons. My country has just two nuclear power plants, so we have little fluoride. But USA has a plenty of both and a great problem on what to do with the excessive fluoride. So it was an easy and cheap task to bribe some people and convince the public that the fluoride from nuclear processing is the fluoride that our body needs to be bought for taxpayer money and copiously dumped into the water supply.

So... Not only is this stuff toxic and damages teeth. (and reputedly 40 % of the American youth has damaged their tooth enamel) It also combines with aluminium in water into aluminium-fluoride complexes. I don't know how common in water is the aluminium, but I know it is like 3rd most plentiful element on Earth, aluminium oxide at least. And all the aluminium foil dumped into nature and from jet engines doesn't help. So these molecules have a way of changing the behavior of cells, triggering some signals inside. One such a triggered cells may fool about 10,000 other cells into sending a fake signals, thus the metabolism goes haywire. Not just metabolism, this might be one of influences that contribute to rising autism rates. Strunecka mentions other possible stuff, including glutamate, as parts of the cocktail effect.

It is not a poisoning, strictly speaking. It is a cocktail effect, a largely unpredictable effect of combining multiple unnatural (unevolved) chemicals into new ones - and triggering destructive cascade effects even in minimal concentrations. Immunoneurotoxicology or something like that she called it.

As far as I can tell, Prof. Strunecka is legit. Here is her article on effect of the aluminofluoride complexes on various aspects of body chemistry.

http://www.fluoridation.com/brain3.htm

https://www.zsf.jcu.cz/jab/2_3/strunecka.htm
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24-05-2013, 07:39 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2013 07:59 PM by DeepThought.)
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 06:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  There is a professor Anna Strunecka who did a research into this. She is a concerned scientist of great renown and academic career who looks into some controversial topics.

What I gathered from her lecture... When she was at USA, she asked why is the water fluoridated. She said it is not economically feasible. Too expensive. The answer she got... Fluoride is produced as a waste during processing nuclear fuel and weapons. My country has just two nuclear power plants, so we have little fluoride. But USA has a plenty of both and a great problem on what to do with the excessive fluoride. So it was an easy and cheap task to bribe some people and convince the public that the fluoride from nuclear processing is the fluoride that our body needs to be bought for taxpayer money and copiously dumped into the water supply.

So... Not only is this stuff toxic and damages teeth. (and reputedly 40 % of the American youth has damaged their tooth enamel) It also combines with aluminium in water into aluminium-fluoride complexes. I don't know how common in water is the aluminium, but I know it is like 3rd most plentiful element on Earth, aluminium oxide at least. And all the aluminium foil dumped into nature and from jet engines doesn't help. So these molecules have a way of changing the behavior of cells, triggering some signals inside. One such a triggered cells may fool about 10,000 other cells into sending a fake signals, thus the metabolism goes haywire. Not just metabolism, this might be one of influences that contribute to rising autism rates. Strunecka mentions other possible stuff, including glutamate, as parts of the cocktail effect.

It is not a poisoning, strictly speaking. It is a cocktail effect, a largely unpredictable effect of combining multiple unnatural (unevolved) chemicals into new ones - and triggering destructive cascade effects even in minimal concentrations. Immunoneurotoxicology or something like that she called it.

As far as I can tell, Prof. Strunecka is legit. Here is her article on effect of the aluminofluoride complexes on various aspects of body chemistry.

http://www.fluoridation.com/brain3.htm

https://www.zsf.jcu.cz/jab/2_3/strunecka.htm

Sounds like hogwash and goes against observable evidence. In countries that have fluoride in the water rates of dental cavities and tooth decay decreased with HUGE statistical significance. It's clear and measurable. Especially when you compare it with countries that don't add it to their water (like the uk).

Fluoride exists in water naturally in most areas anyway. Meaning the government doesn't add supplemental fluoride to the water in those areas (or use less). That it exists naturally in water alone should be enough to dispel most myths that are out there from the shrill conspiracy peddlers. Humans and animals have been drinking the shit long before we actually knew about it.

The association of fluoride with nuclear waste processing is designed to be alarmist. Nuclear is a great buzz word to sell conspiracy junk or to just scare the public. So 10 points for scaring the public with that bullshit. Fluoride is a waste product in allot of chemical manufacturing processes. It's been around long before nuclear power plants.
It's easy to control and only specific fluoride containing molecules are allowed in the water supply.

If you are so fearful of this, then you can buy yourself a cheap water filter, and just like that... Problem solved.

Also the autism argument.. I get sick of hearing that shit.

Autism is new so we haven't got clear statistics on number of autism cases. Back in the day before higher functioning autism was known of people were simply thought of as shy or antisocial.
It's still far too early to start waving around red flags and point to possible environmental triggers.

And regarding glutamate... Glutamate is in seaweed, tomatoes, mushrooms, and parmesan cheese. You've probably already eaten some today.
It's a non-essential amino acid - meaning your body is capable of producing its own from other compounds as required. Your body uses glutamate to build the proteins it needs to go on living.

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25-05-2013, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2013 03:23 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 07:39 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Sounds like hogwash and goes against observable evidence. In countries that have fluoride in the water rates of dental cavities and tooth decay decreased with HUGE statistical significance. It's clear and measurable. Especially when you compare it with countries that don't add it to their water (like the uk).
The question is, does too high concentration of fluoride in water actually damage the teeth?

(24-05-2013 07:39 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  The association of fluoride with nuclear waste processing is designed to be alarmist. Nuclear is a great buzz word to sell conspiracy junk or to just scare the public. So 10 points for scaring the public with that bullshit. Fluoride is a waste product in allot of chemical manufacturing processes. It's been around long before nuclear power plants.
It's not alarmist, it's a cheap industrial source of fluoride. I didn't say it actually is radioactive, that would be absurd. But industrial wastes and byproducts do have a tradition of being marketed and sold as something useful. From naphtalene to alcohol.

(24-05-2013 07:39 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  It's easy to control and only specific fluoride containing molecules are allowed in the water supply.
Please, prove that. Give some evidence that the fluoride-aluminium complexes do not arise in the water. If not in water (not even aluminium cans), then how about the body?

(24-05-2013 07:39 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  If you are so fearful of this, then you can buy yourself a cheap water filter, and just like that... Problem solved.
It's not my problem, actually. In my country the water isn't fluoridated, we haven't got enough fluoride or money. It's just for the Americans sake, I thought I got solid science on the harmfulness of high concentrations of fluoride and aluminium-fluoride complexes.

(24-05-2013 07:39 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Also the autism argument.. I get sick of hearing that shit.

Autism is new so we haven't got clear statistics on number of autism cases. Back in the day before higher functioning autism was known of people were simply thought of as shy or antisocial.
It's still far too early to start waving around red flags and point to possible environmental triggers.

And regarding glutamate... Glutamate is in seaweed, tomatoes, mushrooms, and parmesan cheese. You've probably already eaten some today.
It's a non-essential amino acid - meaning your body is capable of producing its own from other compounds as required. Your body uses glutamate to build the proteins it needs to go on living.
You haven't heard any shit yet, autism is your holy cow that nobody is allowed to research and speculate about possible causes, or he'll be marked as a conspiracy theorist. Yes, prof. Strunecka did also research on immune reactions of children after vaccinations and she wasn't enthusiastic about them, decided that vaccinations have statistical risks that the parents should know about when making the decision. Does that make her anti-vaxxer? No, that is one part of scientific discourse. I suggest you review her paper with doctor Russel Blaylock. (yes, I know he's on the skepdic)
http://rense.com/general81/aut.htm
The point is, if I can understand where prof. Strunecka is wrong, I can contact her, she's from my country. And if not, I can tell my mom, who watched her lecture as well. I know nothing about this shit and I prefer to listen to all sides of argument with any credentials before making an opinion. Hopefully I make an opinion sooner than I have children. Obviously there is no easy solution, the general immunity is so low, that less vaccination would just let more people die of the diseases. I'd guess that a clean and less populated environment would require less vaccination to keep the disease rate down.

This has very little to do with statistics, this is about cocktail effect. The modern age came up with 25 million new chemicals. Nobody can test them all, let alone test combinations of two. Many of them are already used by our body to give signals and coordinate cellular and immune activity, as prof. Strunecka writes. And not a single one is the deciding factor - it probably takes a presence of several to bring some really nasty compounds. How can any statistical research control for that?
Prof. Strunecka did a research on immune and auto-immune reactions as well and she does have some data on possible causes of autism. She does not say this or that causes it, only that many more possible causes exist today and does a research on the most obvious compounds, that actually play a role in cellular signals and so on.

By the way, most experts agree that autism is extremely on the rise in most parts of the world - including the low functioning autism, which is impossible to overlook like the high functioning. Statistics on other disorders like Down syndrome remain the same, in comparison. So whatever the cause, we know it's most probably environmental. In 1990 we thought autism rate is 1 in 10,000, then it went down on 1 in 200, 150, 88 and the last Strunecka's number from USA is 1 in 50 children. Are our statistics of observation really improving that much?
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26-05-2013, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2013 04:09 PM by mysterics.)
RE: Flouride in the water.
I personally never heard of any country's government using fluoride in water, only chlorine, both toxic chemicals, concerns over them are understandable.
But there are two main points things that must be understood.

Anti-biotic chemicals are an absolute necessity of the water recycling process, without this the water supply would turn rancid. Something has to be used.

The same reason they are toxic is the same reason they work, it wouldn't be antibacterial if it didn't kill bacteria, and indeed, making something harmless to humans and harmful to bacteria is an impossibility, the former doesn't function properly without the latter.
I suppose if you're still worried about it, you could get a water filter, but it's already been gone over with an industrial strength filter...
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26-05-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 06:26 PM)Luminon Wrote:  There is a professor Anna Strunecka who did a research into this. She is a concerned scientist of great renown and academic career who looks into some controversial topics.

What I gathered from her lecture... When she was at USA, she asked why is the water fluoridated. She said it is not economically feasible. Too expensive. The answer she got... Fluoride is produced as a waste during processing nuclear fuel and weapons. My country has just two nuclear power plants, so we have little fluoride. But USA has a plenty of both and a great problem on what to do with the excessive fluoride. So it was an easy and cheap task to bribe some people and convince the public that the fluoride from nuclear processing is the fluoride that our body needs to be bought for taxpayer money and copiously dumped into the water supply.

So... Not only is this stuff toxic and damages teeth. (and reputedly 40 % of the American youth has damaged their tooth enamel) It also combines with aluminium in water into aluminium-fluoride complexes. I don't know how common in water is the aluminium, but I know it is like 3rd most plentiful element on Earth, aluminium oxide at least. And all the aluminium foil dumped into nature and from jet engines doesn't help. So these molecules have a way of changing the behavior of cells, triggering some signals inside. One such a triggered cells may fool about 10,000 other cells into sending a fake signals, thus the metabolism goes haywire. Not just metabolism, this might be one of influences that contribute to rising autism rates. Strunecka mentions other possible stuff, including glutamate, as parts of the cocktail effect.

It is not a poisoning, strictly speaking. It is a cocktail effect, a largely unpredictable effect of combining multiple unnatural (unevolved) chemicals into new ones - and triggering destructive cascade effects even in minimal concentrations. Immunoneurotoxicology or something like that she called it.

As far as I can tell, Prof. Strunecka is legit. Here is her article on effect of the aluminofluoride complexes on various aspects of body chemistry.

http://www.fluoridation.com/brain3.htm

https://www.zsf.jcu.cz/jab/2_3/strunecka.htm

Good thing we use Sodium fluoride, Hexafluorosilicic acid, and Sodium fluorosilicate.
http://www.worldcat.org/title/water-fluo...4/viewport

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26-05-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Flouride in the water.
(24-05-2013 03:15 PM)bemore Wrote:  So actually swallowing it and absorbing it into your body is good for teeth enamel?

If that is the case why are people not advised to swallow toothpaste?

If the water supply is fluoridated at the level of 1 ppm, one must consume one litre of water in order to take in 1 mg of fluoride. It is thus improbable a person will receive more than the tolerable upper limit from consuming optimally fluoridated water alone.

Fluoride consumption can exceed the tolerable upper limit when someone drinks a lot of fluoride containing water in combination with other fluoride sources, such as swallowing fluoridated toothpaste, consuming food with a high fluoride content, or consuming fluoride supplements. The use of fluoride supplements as a prevention for tooth decay is rare in areas with water fluoridation, but was recommended by many dentists in the UK until the early 1990s.

Dental fluorosis can be prevented by lowering the amount of fluoride intake to below the tolerable upper limit.

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