Focusing on White
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27-08-2016, 03:20 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 03:57 AM)tomilay Wrote:  This looks like another version of Black Lives Matter/All Lives Matter "dichotomy". I don't know Maori that well, but enough to know they probably endure some institutionalized disadvantages. Institutionalized racism seems like a more difficult concept to grasp than one would initially assume.
It's very hard to understand Tomilay.

Our schools are public, our health is public.
There isn't a problem such that qualified Maoris are struggling to find jobs where as qualified non Maori are finding jobs easily.

It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.

So the question: Why aren't they applying themselves?

It isn't a poverty thing.
I have a good friend who came to NZ as a refugee from Vietnam. His family had nothing to their name. Now after a few decades they are doing really well. Is it because he is non Maori or is it because he has put effort in?

Looking at stats of race of CEO, or race of uni students, these are symptoms not causes. To solve the issue you don't artificially "fix" the symptoms, you focus on the cause.

I do struggle to understand how the system is stacked against the Maori.
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27-08-2016, 03:38 PM
Focusing on White
(26-08-2016 08:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Find a makeup artist to make you pass as black. Take an evening stroll through your neighborhood.

What do you suppose would happen?
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27-08-2016, 03:54 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 03:38 PM)KUSA Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 08:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Find a makeup artist to make you pass as black. Take an evening stroll through your neighborhood.

What do you suppose would happen?

That's the intriguing part. I don't know. I'll look around and see if anyone has tried anything similar.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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27-08-2016, 03:59 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(26-08-2016 08:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  The difference between understanding something and actually experiencing it. One is academic. The other visceral. The best way to understand certain perspectives is to just actually experience them. Find a makeup artist to make you pass as black. Take an evening stroll through your neighborhood.

No need for a makeup artist when you got methoxsalen. Black Like Me.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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27-08-2016, 04:26 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 03:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 03:57 AM)tomilay Wrote:  This looks like another version of Black Lives Matter/All Lives Matter "dichotomy". I don't know Maori that well, but enough to know they probably endure some institutionalized disadvantages. Institutionalized racism seems like a more difficult concept to grasp than one would initially assume.
It's very hard to understand Tomilay.

Our schools are public, our health is public.
There isn't a problem such that qualified Maoris are struggling to find jobs where as qualified non Maori are finding jobs easily.

It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.

So the question: Why aren't they applying themselves?

It isn't a poverty thing.
I have a good friend who came to NZ as a refugee from Vietnam. His family had nothing to their name. Now after a few decades they are doing really well. Is it because he is non Maori or is it because he has put effort in?

Looking at stats of race of CEO, or race of uni students, these are symptoms not causes. To solve the issue you don't artificially "fix" the symptoms, you focus on the cause.

I do struggle to understand how the system is stacked against the Maori.

I'd be lying if I said I know much about Maoris beyond the haka and some nice Polynesian music. My immediate suspicion is institutionalized racism. If Vietnamese in New Zealand, like a lot of Asians, enjoy a positive stereotype, they are going to have a slightly different experience and reaction than a Maori, who I suspect just from your description, is already coming in somewhat at a disadvantage.

Granted it's oversimplified mostly from ignorance about New Zealand. But I think it has to do with how greater society views and reacts to them.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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27-08-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 03:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 08:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  The difference between understanding something and actually experiencing it. One is academic. The other visceral. The best way to understand certain perspectives is to just actually experience them. Find a makeup artist to make you pass as black. Take an evening stroll through your neighborhood.

No need for a makeup artist when you got methoxsalen. Black Like Me.

Griffin is from the 50s or 60s. But it will likely come as a shock that many aspects of his experience, especially the petty indignities, are still familiar to African Americans in 2016. Most people simply become immunized against them by developing a thick skin. I would love to see a similar experiment in contemporary times.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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27-08-2016, 05:23 PM
RE: Focusing on White
I can't speak knowledgably about NZ, but racism is still a social factor in America.
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27-08-2016, 06:04 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 03:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(26-08-2016 08:51 PM)tomilay Wrote:  The difference between understanding something and actually experiencing it. One is academic. The other visceral. The best way to understand certain perspectives is to just actually experience them. Find a makeup artist to make you pass as black. Take an evening stroll through your neighborhood.

No need for a makeup artist when you got methoxsalen. Black Like Me.

Great link, I had never heard of that story and of course I had to open up my

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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27-08-2016, 08:00 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2016 08:06 PM by Slowminded.)
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 09:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 07:54 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  What you are striving for is equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunity, what you are striving is cosmetics, forced diversity of gender and race completely neglecting merit and the only diversity that really matters , an intellectual one.


What you are proposing is that current generation of white people ( white men in particular ) pays the price for some historical injustices and you perceive this to be fair but what you are saying is that the individuals who are not guilty of anything should be punished in order to compensate individuals who are , in fact, not victims of anything.
All of this because you place a collective blame for enjoying historical privileges on a group of people and than you project those privileges and consequently blame , to every individual of the said group.
Like some white kid who grew up in poverty in some trailer park is responsible or benefited in any way from slavery or from the fact that 99% of CEO's of Fortune 500 are white man , so it is now fair to exclude him from the benefits you offer to individuals who belong to groups perceived as oppressed.

This kind of collectivism that produces policies that favor or disfavor people based simply on the group , race, gender, they belong to, is detrimental. It just creates more injustice and animosity between those groups.
It also perpetuates racism and sexism when it comes to gender , even tho you probably think it's opposite.

Meh...


Few quotes from Milton Friedman


“A society that puts equality before freedom will get neither. A society that puts freedom before equality will get a high degree of both.”


“One of the great mistakes is to judge policies and programs by their intentions rather than their results.”

“The great virtue of a free market system is that it does not care what color people are; it does not care what their religion is; it only cares whether they can produce something you want to buy. It is the most effective system we have discovered to enable people who hate one another to deal with one another and help one another.”

So if I get you correctly its fair and equal for a group to have access to a better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena, to have access to more wealth, to control de facto political and economical levers. But, its unfair to the groups who have less of everything stated above to have access to programs and initiatives to help them specifically to create better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena?

What I am saying is that division of people based on artificially made up "groups" is bullshit identity politics.
I am saying that people are not groups they belong to, they are individuals.
I am saying that once you start treating people like individuals and not a members of the group they belong to , then and only then they will be judged solely by merit and content of their character by teachers, employers, judges.....and then their skin color , religion, gender....will be insignificant and you will have equal opportunity and level playing field for everyone.
Not for every "group", but for every individual. This is what society should strive for.

Morgan Freeman hits the nail on the head here , makes the point I am trying to make perfectly





What I am also saying is that you can't treat every white person as privileged because most of the privileged are whites.
There is no difference between that and treating every Muslim as a terrorist because most of the terrorists are Muslims.
You see, when you put it into perspective how clear it is how stupid and wrong that is.


Quote:You call equality of opportunity the chances of a white men born in the higher middle class of a white men dominated country to succeed compared to a native women born in community much poorer and in country with poor representation of her gender and ethnic group?

Again, identity politics, only problem comes from not judging people on merit but on group they belong to. You don't need representation of your ethnicity in i.e. field of mathematics to be able to solve a math problem, do you?
If you are a mathematician then you are a mathematician. But if you insist that you are a native women mathematician , then representation of your ethnicity and gender in the field may present itself as a problem that you created by yourself.




Quote: This, to me, this is like making a race in which one of the contestant has to run half the distance of the other. Can the disadvantage one win? Yes he can, but its going to much harder and require much more efforts than for the other one and thanks to the lotery of birth, it will be harder of them to develop the skills and attitudes necessary to succeed in our socio-economic system. The chances of a person born in the middle class to remain there or to improvre is station is of about 80%. The chances of a member of the lower class to improve is station is of about 25%. This is because the opportunities aren't equal.


Why did you present your stats in such a manner? When you mention lower class you only present the chances of them improving their situation but with the middle class you include the chances of them staying in their class too.
If you exclude chances of middle class to stay in middle class I assume that their chances of improving would be similar to the chances of lower class to improve, right?
In a free market society you will always have lower, middle and upper classes economically and it is hard to dig yourself out of poverty. So what? Life isn't fair?
Omg, people don't all have the same starting positions, how cruel the world is. Excuse my cold heart when it comes to this , but all those "groups" that you find horribly oppressed and underprivileged in the US or in Canada ( you are Canadian, right? ) have on average significantly better starting point and more opportunities than I had.


Quote:If you break down the stats by gender and race you will realise that its easier for white men to improve their station or keep it stable (should it be a good position) than for women and non-whites because proclaiming that races and genders are equal doesn't make it so. It doesn't change culture and institution, it doesn't even reduce internalise bias and no it doesn't erase the past and that's exactly what the present is made of.

Yeah, well, I don't have the stats you mention to break down so I can't deny or confirm that.

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group, because in the past, this group used its economical and political power to crush the others. I can totally understand why you would consider this equality. Its not because you are a white men that you are necessarly priviledged. You can be poor, in shitty home and have access to very little good institutions and be white. You can be exactly in the same situation than any poor native person. The big difference it that when you open a newspaper or the television, you see white men well represented in all area from villain to champion. When you walk down the streets you are less likely to be harassed. When you strive to extirpate yourself from this situation you don't suffer from racial discrimination in housing or employment. Internalised bias are working to help you and not the opposite. you don't have class priviledges (probably the biggest ones in my opinion), but you still have your racial and sexual ones. These aren't big advantages per say, they won't make your trials feel that much easier, but they explain how come you succeed more easily than others in the exact same position.

Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group

You mean Asians? I refer you to the data I posted earlier that show that is Asians, not whites , who are most economically successful ethnic group in US.

You turn on the tv and you see mostly white people? How strange is that, in a country where most of the population is white? I bet when you turn on the tv in Nigeria you gonna see mostly black people and in China you gonna see Asian people.

I fail to see how seeing white people on tv is benefiting white people watching them but...

Anyway , when you turn the tv in US you gonna see a black president, black Attorney General, if you want to watch sports you gonna see mostly black athletes , music ...movies, plenty of black artists. Maybe you prefer Oprah.
I don't have the data , but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that black people in US are in fact overrepresented in media considering they are only 13% of population.
Before all of this BLM bullshit I thought that blacks make almost half of the US population based on the media representation, that was my impression.

I won't address every example you made , it is mostly insignificant or subjective stuff

Quote:In my opinion there is no such thing has equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. If there is equality, there is no difference between outcome and opportunity (or if there is one its insignificant).

Oh, really?

Let me introduce you to USA Olympic basketball team

[Image: 28jju40.jpg]

So...classic example of institutional racism against whites in basketball ? Must be, right? Otherwise we would have equal representation?

Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.

Quote:I don't believe that white men have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed in society than natives, blacks or women. Thus if you make the opportunity truly equal, the results will necessarly follow (of course this is true only on population level, not so much on the personnal one).

I don't think that white man have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed either , but that doesn't mean that results will follow in a way that you find to be a sign of equality by no means.

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27-08-2016, 09:28 PM
RE: Focusing on White
@Slowminded

Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )

Yet, the fact that white person have easier access to housing by the sole fact they are white is well known. The fact that white men have positive hiring bias compared to black and native americans (or Maori to stay on track) is also well documented. Yes, white privilege is a reality. We can argue on its specific for exemple how it affect the various ethnic group that can be considered «white», how interract with gender, how interract with classism, are affirmative action programs really a good way to deal with it, etc. In fact, folowing this theory, you are expressing something called «White fragility». You should read up on it its very interesting. There is a lot of good easy to access, free sources in the wikipedia article on the subject. Have a look and see for yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_priv..._fragility

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