Focusing on White
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27-08-2016, 09:50 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 09:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  So if I get you correctly its fair and equal for a group to have access to a better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena, to have access to more wealth, to control de facto political and economical levers. But, its unfair to the groups who have less of everything stated above to have access to programs and initiatives to help them specifically to create better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena?

What I am saying is that division of people based on artificially made up "groups" is bullshit identity politics.
I am saying that people are not groups they belong to, they are individuals.
I am saying that once you start treating people like individuals and not a members of the group they belong to , then and only then they will be judged solely by merit and content of their character by teachers, employers, judges.....and then their skin color , religion, gender....will be insignificant and you will have equal opportunity and level playing field for everyone.
Not for every "group", but for every individual. This is what society should strive for.

Morgan Freeman hits the nail on the head here , makes the point I am trying to make perfectly





What I am also saying is that you can't treat every white person as privileged because most of the privileged are whites.
There is no difference between that and treating every Muslim as a terrorist because most of the terrorists are Muslims.
You see, when you put it into perspective how clear it is how stupid and wrong that is.


Quote:You call equality of opportunity the chances of a white men born in the higher middle class of a white men dominated country to succeed compared to a native women born in community much poorer and in country with poor representation of her gender and ethnic group?

Again, identity politics, only problem comes from not judging people on merit but on group they belong to. You don't need representation of your ethnicity in i.e. field of mathematics to be able to solve a math problem, do you?
If you are a mathematician then you are a mathematician. But if you insist that you are a native women mathematician , then representation of your ethnicity and gender in the field may present itself as a problem that you created by yourself.




Quote: This, to me, this is like making a race in which one of the contestant has to run half the distance of the other. Can the disadvantage one win? Yes he can, but its going to much harder and require much more efforts than for the other one and thanks to the lotery of birth, it will be harder of them to develop the skills and attitudes necessary to succeed in our socio-economic system. The chances of a person born in the middle class to remain there or to improvre is station is of about 80%. The chances of a member of the lower class to improve is station is of about 25%. This is because the opportunities aren't equal.


Why did you present your stats in such a manner? When you mention lower class you only present the chances of them improving their situation but with the middle class you include the chances of them staying in their class too.
If you exclude chances of middle class to stay in middle class I assume that their chances of improving would be similar to the chances of lower class to improve, right?
In a free market society you will always have lower, middle and upper classes economically and it is hard to dig yourself out of poverty. So what? Life isn't fair?
Omg, people don't all have the same starting positions, how cruel the world is. Excuse my cold heart when it comes to this , but all those "groups" that you find horribly oppressed and underprivileged in the US or in Canada ( you are Canadian, right? ) have on average significantly better starting point and more opportunities than I had.


Quote:If you break down the stats by gender and race you will realise that its easier for white men to improve their station or keep it stable (should it be a good position) than for women and non-whites because proclaiming that races and genders are equal doesn't make it so. It doesn't change culture and institution, it doesn't even reduce internalise bias and no it doesn't erase the past and that's exactly what the present is made of.

Yeah, well, I don't have the stats you mention to break down so I can't deny or confirm that.

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group, because in the past, this group used its economical and political power to crush the others. I can totally understand why you would consider this equality. Its not because you are a white men that you are necessarly priviledged. You can be poor, in shitty home and have access to very little good institutions and be white. You can be exactly in the same situation than any poor native person. The big difference it that when you open a newspaper or the television, you see white men well represented in all area from villain to champion. When you walk down the streets you are less likely to be harassed. When you strive to extirpate yourself from this situation you don't suffer from racial discrimination in housing or employment. Internalised bias are working to help you and not the opposite. you don't have class priviledges (probably the biggest ones in my opinion), but you still have your racial and sexual ones. These aren't big advantages per say, they won't make your trials feel that much easier, but they explain how come you succeed more easily than others in the exact same position.

Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group

You mean Asians? I refer you to the data I posted earlier that show that is Asians, not whites , who are most economically successful ethnic group in US.

You turn on the tv and you see mostly white people? How strange is that, in a country where most of the population is white? I bet when you turn on the tv in Nigeria you gonna see mostly black people and in China you gonna see Asian people.

I fail to see how seeing white people on tv is benefiting white people watching them but...

Anyway , when you turn the tv in US you gonna see a black president, black Attorney General, if you want to watch sports you gonna see mostly black athletes , music ...movies, plenty of black artists. Maybe you prefer Oprah.
I don't have the data , but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that black people in US are in fact overrepresented in media considering they are only 13% of population.
Before all of this BLM bullshit I thought that blacks make almost half of the US population based on the media representation, that was my impression.

I won't address every example you made , it is mostly insignificant or subjective stuff

Quote:In my opinion there is no such thing has equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. If there is equality, there is no difference between outcome and opportunity (or if there is one its insignificant).

Oh, really?

Let me introduce you to USA Olympic basketball team

[Image: 28jju40.jpg]

So...classic example of institutional racism against whites in basketball ? Must be, right? Otherwise we would have equal representation?

Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.

Quote:I don't believe that white men have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed in society than natives, blacks or women. Thus if you make the opportunity truly equal, the results will necessarly follow (of course this is true only on population level, not so much on the personnal one).

I don't think that white man have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed either , but that doesn't mean that results will follow in a way that you find to be a sign of equality by no means.
I applaud you for your efforts, but I think you're wasting your time. I've never met a SJW whose mind could be swayed by reason. They are as entrenched and invested in their world view as the fanatic religious right on the other side.

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27-08-2016, 10:37 PM (This post was last modified: 27-08-2016 10:44 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.

The job market, if it is strictly driven by the profit incentive, should be absolutely blind to anything other than talent, on this we are on the same page.

OK, bear with me, going on a ramble of disjointed thoughts and not directed at you Slowminded, I’m just airing out my brain.

Everyone’s money is green so in theory it should make zero difference to who I rent out an apartment. Yet in the hyperlink I posted a few posts back Fred Trump chose to discriminate based solely on skin color. Fred is not the only one guilty of this, it still happens to this day. Real estate is rife with red-lining and steering, I know because I was a real estate agent for nine years and have seen it first hand.

The LGBT community is another group that is discriminated against, and woe be unto you if you are doubly “cursed” by also being Black, Latino or Asian here in the US.

The US isn’t the only one guilty of this, you can say the same for a non Japanese living in Japan. http://www.newsweek.com/why-does-no-one-...ist-364129

Or Muslims anywhere outside the Middle East.

Or North Africans anywhere in Europe.

Some white/caucasians are for the first time in their lives experiencing what discrimination feels like, some of this in the form of “affirmative action”. It pisses people off. Why does a less qualified individual get the position I applied for? The job market should value my skills higher than theirs, but they were picked because while less qualified the company needed to reach a quota set by the State or Country. Bollocks I cry! This is completely unfair, stupid and unjust. Contrary to what you may think, I agree it’s all these things.

But due to a history which neither you or I had anything to do with we are feeling the effects of the crimes of our ancestors. Viscerally I despise it. Intellectually I understand the reasoning for it.

I thought things were getting better here in America. I truly did. This whole hate mongering being propagated by a presidential candidate is drawing the worst out in some people. People who had dissapeared into the woodwork until now are coming out of the gutters and spewing racial hate. Much of it aimed at the Mexican community, Mexicans must be the new black I guess.

I’m rambling, I’m tired. I’m also dissapointed that I will not live to see in my lifetime a country where only the content of your character and not the color of your skin (MLK) or your non-beliefs, or what you have between your legs and who you love mattered. It would be great if everyone was judged as an individual and not part of a larger group but alas, we humans are but one chromosome away from Chimpanzees and it shows (C. Hitchens).

If you read this far my apologies, however I at least warned you.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-08-2016, 10:49 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 09:50 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I applaud you for your efforts, but I think you're wasting your time. I've never met a SJW whose mind could be swayed by reason. They are as entrenched and invested in their world view as the fanatic religious right on the other side.

Had to go to the Urban Dictionary to figure out what SJW stood for. Shit, I hope that’s not me. I don’t think it describes my intentions or my actions irl. Consider

Social Justice Warrior. A pejorative term for an individual who repeatedly and vehemently engages in arguments on social justice on the Internet, often in a shallow or not well-thought-out way, for the purpose of raising their own personal reputation. A social justice warrior, or SJW, does not necessarily strongly believe all that they say, or even care about the groups they are fighting on behalf of. They typically repeat points from whoever is the most popular blogger or commenter of the moment, hoping that they will "get SJ points" and become popular in return. They are very sure to adopt stances that are "correct" in their social circle.

The SJW's favorite activity of all is to dogpile. Their favorite websites to frequent are Livejournal and Tumblr. They do not have relevant favorite real-world places, because SJWs are primarily civil rights activists only online.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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28-08-2016, 12:07 AM
RE: Focusing on White
Quote:A Brit and Maori model is outdated it does not reflect NZ. To move forward as a country, to treat people as equals we need to rid ourselves of Britain and Maori, rid ourselves of that old treaty. We need to be a one peoples.

THEN WHY THE FUCK DID YOU VOTE TO KEEP THE FLAG!?

Just so you know, I'm totally with you on this. I agree with your POV 100% and have had many similar experiences. Just you know.. should have voted to change the flag.
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28-08-2016, 12:51 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 10:49 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  [i]Social Justice Warrior. A pejorative term for an individual who...
Thanks for posting that. I too was wondering what SJW was.
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28-08-2016, 12:52 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 12:07 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  
Quote:A Brit and Maori model is outdated it does not reflect NZ. To move forward as a country, to treat people as equals we need to rid ourselves of Britain and Maori, rid ourselves of that old treaty. We need to be a one peoples.

THEN WHY THE FUCK DID YOU VOTE TO KEEP THE FLAG!?

Just so you know, I'm totally with you on this. I agree with your POV 100% and have had many similar experiences. Just you know.. should have voted to change the flag.
Because I don't want the change of flag to be meaningless. I want it to come with significant change.
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28-08-2016, 04:22 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 09:57 AM)epronovost Wrote:  So if I get you correctly its fair and equal for a group to have access to a better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena, to have access to more wealth, to control de facto political and economical levers. But, its unfair to the groups who have less of everything stated above to have access to programs and initiatives to help them specifically to create better home environment, better infrastructures, better education, more positive representation in the cultural arena?

What I am saying is that division of people based on artificially made up "groups" is bullshit identity politics.
I am saying that people are not groups they belong to, they are individuals.
I am saying that once you start treating people like individuals and not a members of the group they belong to , then and only then they will be judged solely by merit and content of their character by teachers, employers, judges.....and then their skin color , religion, gender....will be insignificant and you will have equal opportunity and level playing field for everyone.
Not for every "group", but for every individual. This is what society should strive for.

Morgan Freeman hits the nail on the head here , makes the point I am trying to make perfectly





What I am also saying is that you can't treat every white person as privileged because most of the privileged are whites.
There is no difference between that and treating every Muslim as a terrorist because most of the terrorists are Muslims.
You see, when you put it into perspective how clear it is how stupid and wrong that is.


Quote:You call equality of opportunity the chances of a white men born in the higher middle class of a white men dominated country to succeed compared to a native women born in community much poorer and in country with poor representation of her gender and ethnic group?

Again, identity politics, only problem comes from not judging people on merit but on group they belong to. You don't need representation of your ethnicity in i.e. field of mathematics to be able to solve a math problem, do you?
If you are a mathematician then you are a mathematician. But if you insist that you are a native women mathematician , then representation of your ethnicity and gender in the field may present itself as a problem that you created by yourself.




Quote: This, to me, this is like making a race in which one of the contestant has to run half the distance of the other. Can the disadvantage one win? Yes he can, but its going to much harder and require much more efforts than for the other one and thanks to the lotery of birth, it will be harder of them to develop the skills and attitudes necessary to succeed in our socio-economic system. The chances of a person born in the middle class to remain there or to improvre is station is of about 80%. The chances of a member of the lower class to improve is station is of about 25%. This is because the opportunities aren't equal.


Why did you present your stats in such a manner? When you mention lower class you only present the chances of them improving their situation but with the middle class you include the chances of them staying in their class too.
If you exclude chances of middle class to stay in middle class I assume that their chances of improving would be similar to the chances of lower class to improve, right?
In a free market society you will always have lower, middle and upper classes economically and it is hard to dig yourself out of poverty. So what? Life isn't fair?
Omg, people don't all have the same starting positions, how cruel the world is. Excuse my cold heart when it comes to this , but all those "groups" that you find horribly oppressed and underprivileged in the US or in Canada ( you are Canadian, right? ) have on average significantly better starting point and more opportunities than I had.


Quote:If you break down the stats by gender and race you will realise that its easier for white men to improve their station or keep it stable (should it be a good position) than for women and non-whites because proclaiming that races and genders are equal doesn't make it so. It doesn't change culture and institution, it doesn't even reduce internalise bias and no it doesn't erase the past and that's exactly what the present is made of.

Yeah, well, I don't have the stats you mention to break down so I can't deny or confirm that.

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group, because in the past, this group used its economical and political power to crush the others. I can totally understand why you would consider this equality. Its not because you are a white men that you are necessarly priviledged. You can be poor, in shitty home and have access to very little good institutions and be white. You can be exactly in the same situation than any poor native person. The big difference it that when you open a newspaper or the television, you see white men well represented in all area from villain to champion. When you walk down the streets you are less likely to be harassed. When you strive to extirpate yourself from this situation you don't suffer from racial discrimination in housing or employment. Internalised bias are working to help you and not the opposite. you don't have class priviledges (probably the biggest ones in my opinion), but you still have your racial and sexual ones. These aren't big advantages per say, they won't make your trials feel that much easier, but they explain how come you succeed more easily than others in the exact same position.

Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )

Quote:What you call «meritocracy» and «equality of opportinuty» is simply the perpetuation of a competitive system which favors heavily a certain group

You mean Asians? I refer you to the data I posted earlier that show that is Asians, not whites , who are most economically successful ethnic group in US.

You turn on the tv and you see mostly white people? How strange is that, in a country where most of the population is white? I bet when you turn on the tv in Nigeria you gonna see mostly black people and in China you gonna see Asian people.

I fail to see how seeing white people on tv is benefiting white people watching them but...

Anyway , when you turn the tv in US you gonna see a black president, black Attorney General, if you want to watch sports you gonna see mostly black athletes , music ...movies, plenty of black artists. Maybe you prefer Oprah.
I don't have the data , but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that black people in US are in fact overrepresented in media considering they are only 13% of population.
Before all of this BLM bullshit I thought that blacks make almost half of the US population based on the media representation, that was my impression.

I won't address every example you made , it is mostly insignificant or subjective stuff

Quote:In my opinion there is no such thing has equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome. If there is equality, there is no difference between outcome and opportunity (or if there is one its insignificant).

Oh, really?

Let me introduce you to USA Olympic basketball team

[Image: 28jju40.jpg]

So...classic example of institutional racism against whites in basketball ? Must be, right? Otherwise we would have equal representation?

Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.

Quote:I don't believe that white men have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed in society than natives, blacks or women. Thus if you make the opportunity truly equal, the results will necessarly follow (of course this is true only on population level, not so much on the personnal one).

I don't think that white man have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed either , but that doesn't mean that results will follow in a way that you find to be a sign of equality by no means.

I am familiar with Morgan Freeman's views. I share his view on Black History month. Simply because US history is black history. I prefer to just study history as is. Rather than with a purpose of creating saints and villains. No group has a monopoly or a deficit on either. I disagree with him that racism disappears if you don't talk about it. That is idealistic, but also shockingly naive. The Maori who applies himself is not going to suddenly be received positively by people who "know" Maoris don't apply themselves, even though he talks no race.

I like the example of basketball. It shows what positive stereotyping can do. Blacks, at least in the US, are seen as gifted athletes, right out of the gate. Especially in basketball. Conversely, American whites, rarely consider themselves on an equal level, not because they can't jump or run, but because society reinforces the notion. Gifted American whites, who could excel in basketball are just channeled into other "more suitable" areas.

That's true, in America. However European whites, don't seem to have the same hangups or doubts about their basketball abilities. An increasing number of them, from Lithuania, former Yugoslavia, Spain, even Australia...are now making the NBA white again Smile.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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28-08-2016, 05:33 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 04:22 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I disagree with him that racism disappears if you don't talk about it. That is idealistic, but also shockingly naive. The Maori who applies himself is not going to suddenly be received positively by people who "know" Maoris don't apply themselves, even though he talks no race.
I'm not sure where this perception comes from.
Maoris can apply themselves and those that do, do very well for themselves.
Maoris sit the same School Cert and University Entrance test as do the non Maori. These papers are marked without the knowledge of the ethnicity of the student.

Winston Peters (a maori), a qualified lawyer, was vice leader of the National Party at one stage. He was destined to be the first NZ maori prime minister. It didn't work out. He had strong views and was eventually kicked out of National party. But he started up his own party, and for many years he was the king maker, doing deals with both National and Labour he alone chose our prime minister. He was in cabinet for many years, he was Finance Minister, Tourism Minister. He did a great job.
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28-08-2016, 05:50 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 06:09 AM by tomilay.)
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 05:33 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 04:22 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I disagree with him that racism disappears if you don't talk about it. That is idealistic, but also shockingly naive. The Maori who applies himself is not going to suddenly be received positively by people who "know" Maoris don't apply themselves, even though he talks no race.
I'm not sure where this perception comes from.
Maoris can apply themselves and those that do, do very well for themselves.
Maoris sit the same School Cert and University Entrance test as do the non Maori. These papers are marked without the knowledge of the ethnicity of the student.

Winston Peters (a maori), a qualified lawyer, was vice leader of the National Party at one stage. He was destined to be the first NZ maori prime minister. It didn't work out. He had strong views and was eventually kicked out of National party. But he started up his own party, and for many years he was the king maker, doing deals with both National and Labour he alone chose our prime minister. He was in cabinet for many years, he was Finance Minister, Tourism Minister. He did a great job.

I get that part. If the individual applies himself, he succeeds. And you have examples. But when I listen to the description "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.". I have to wonder, isn't it about the individual?

EDIT:

The statement is all-encompassing. It automatically paints someone like Winston Peters as belonging to a group that is not playing by the rules. When do you judge people as individuals or as part of a group?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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28-08-2016, 06:50 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 09:28 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Slowminded

Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )

Yet, the fact that white person have easier access to housing by the sole fact they are white is well known. The fact that white men have positive hiring bias compared to black and native americans (or Maori to stay on track) is also well documented. Yes, white privilege is a reality. We can argue on its specific for exemple how it affect the various ethnic group that can be considered «white», how interract with gender, how interract with classism, are affirmative action programs really a good way to deal with it, etc. In fact, folowing this theory, you are expressing something called «White fragility». You should read up on it its very interesting. There is a lot of good easy to access, free sources in the wikipedia article on the subject. Have a look and see for yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_priv..._fragility

Yes, there are biases , there are people who are racist. What you don't get, what I am trying to unsuccessfully convey to you is that you are perpetuating those biases trough affirmative actions and trough policies that define and target specific groups based on race and gender.

Let me give you an example , if I am about to hire somebody and have in front of me two, on paper equally competent people , if I know that one of them got to college trough affirmative action , if I know that he/she received leniency trough college because "we need more of "X group" "in STEM fields , if, because of current social atmosphere I believe that there is a reasonable chance that this person will use race/gender baiting , that this person is going to pull victim card on me...guess who I am NOT hiring.
Now, you can force me to hire this person trough enforcing race/gender quotas and I am going to resent it, and other people in the company are going to resent it , and the equally or more competent person who didn't get the job because of the quotas is going to resent it.
And there you go, biases, resentment , racism and sexism successfully perpetuated by the policies created to destroy them.

How successful those policies are in stopping racism and improving the general situation of black population in US....well I can see that in the news.
More black people on social welfare and food stamps then ever, racial tension trough the roof, riots , violence....great job.
Just a little bit more successful and and you gonna have a full blown race war on your hands.

White fragility Rolleyes

Yeah, I guess I am pretty fed up with being guilty for everything that is wrong in the world. As a white heterosexual able bodied man I am the most guilty person that has ever lived on this planet it seems.
Seems that I am by default guilty of racism, sexism, ableism , guilty of oppression over women, minorities , LGBT population, rapist waiting to happen, and of course as a Serb I am also a genocidal maniac. Weeping

This is some kind of a secular version of Christianity's original sin? I was born guilty?
I rejected that concept when it comes from Christianity and I reject it when it comes from "progressives" .
Why do some atheists buy into this shit I can't understand.
Once a cultist , always a cultist , I guess.

You can call it White fragility or whatever shaming name you want, but I have nothing to apologize for and nothing to feel guilty about.
I hold myself responsible for my own actions and for my own actions only , to anybody who tries to hold me responsible for actions of others because we share same gender or skin color or nationality my response is, and always will be "fuck you and fuck off" ( This is not addressed to you )

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