Focusing on White
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28-08-2016, 06:52 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 09:50 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  What I am saying is that division of people based on artificially made up "groups" is bullshit identity politics.
I am saying that people are not groups they belong to, they are individuals.
I am saying that once you start treating people like individuals and not a members of the group they belong to , then and only then they will be judged solely by merit and content of their character by teachers, employers, judges.....and then their skin color , religion, gender....will be insignificant and you will have equal opportunity and level playing field for everyone.
Not for every "group", but for every individual. This is what society should strive for.

Morgan Freeman hits the nail on the head here , makes the point I am trying to make perfectly





What I am also saying is that you can't treat every white person as privileged because most of the privileged are whites.
There is no difference between that and treating every Muslim as a terrorist because most of the terrorists are Muslims.
You see, when you put it into perspective how clear it is how stupid and wrong that is.



Again, identity politics, only problem comes from not judging people on merit but on group they belong to. You don't need representation of your ethnicity in i.e. field of mathematics to be able to solve a math problem, do you?
If you are a mathematician then you are a mathematician. But if you insist that you are a native women mathematician , then representation of your ethnicity and gender in the field may present itself as a problem that you created by yourself.






Why did you present your stats in such a manner? When you mention lower class you only present the chances of them improving their situation but with the middle class you include the chances of them staying in their class too.
If you exclude chances of middle class to stay in middle class I assume that their chances of improving would be similar to the chances of lower class to improve, right?
In a free market society you will always have lower, middle and upper classes economically and it is hard to dig yourself out of poverty. So what? Life isn't fair?
Omg, people don't all have the same starting positions, how cruel the world is. Excuse my cold heart when it comes to this , but all those "groups" that you find horribly oppressed and underprivileged in the US or in Canada ( you are Canadian, right? ) have on average significantly better starting point and more opportunities than I had.



Yeah, well, I don't have the stats you mention to break down so I can't deny or confirm that.


Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )


You mean Asians? I refer you to the data I posted earlier that show that is Asians, not whites , who are most economically successful ethnic group in US.

You turn on the tv and you see mostly white people? How strange is that, in a country where most of the population is white? I bet when you turn on the tv in Nigeria you gonna see mostly black people and in China you gonna see Asian people.

I fail to see how seeing white people on tv is benefiting white people watching them but...

Anyway , when you turn the tv in US you gonna see a black president, black Attorney General, if you want to watch sports you gonna see mostly black athletes , music ...movies, plenty of black artists. Maybe you prefer Oprah.
I don't have the data , but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that black people in US are in fact overrepresented in media considering they are only 13% of population.
Before all of this BLM bullshit I thought that blacks make almost half of the US population based on the media representation, that was my impression.

I won't address every example you made , it is mostly insignificant or subjective stuff


Oh, really?

Let me introduce you to USA Olympic basketball team

[Image: 28jju40.jpg]

So...classic example of institutional racism against whites in basketball ? Must be, right? Otherwise we would have equal representation?

Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.


I don't think that white man have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed either , but that doesn't mean that results will follow in a way that you find to be a sign of equality by no means.
I applaud you for your efforts, but I think you're wasting your time. I've never met a SJW whose mind could be swayed by reason. They are as entrenched and invested in their world view as the fanatic religious right on the other side.

Yeah, I know. Had some time on my hands, could've spent it more usefully.

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28-08-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(27-08-2016 10:37 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.

The job market, if it is strictly driven by the profit incentive, should be absolutely blind to anything other than talent, on this we are on the same page.

OK, bear with me, going on a ramble of disjointed thoughts and not directed at you Slowminded, I’m just airing out my brain.

Everyone’s money is green so in theory it should make zero difference to who I rent out an apartment. Yet in the hyperlink I posted a few posts back Fred Trump chose to discriminate based solely on skin color. Fred is not the only one guilty of this, it still happens to this day. Real estate is rife with red-lining and steering, I know because I was a real estate agent for nine years and have seen it first hand.

The LGBT community is another group that is discriminated against, and woe be unto you if you are doubly “cursed” by also being Black, Latino or Asian here in the US.

The US isn’t the only one guilty of this, you can say the same for a non Japanese living in Japan. http://www.newsweek.com/why-does-no-one-...ist-364129

Or Muslims anywhere outside the Middle East.

Or North Africans anywhere in Europe.

Some white/caucasians are for the first time in their lives experiencing what discrimination feels like, some of this in the form of “affirmative action”. It pisses people off. Why does a less qualified individual get the position I applied for? The job market should value my skills higher than theirs, but they were picked because while less qualified the company needed to reach a quota set by the State or Country. Bollocks I cry! This is completely unfair, stupid and unjust. Contrary to what you may think, I agree it’s all these things.

But due to a history which neither you or I had anything to do with we are feeling the effects of the crimes of our ancestors. Viscerally I despise it. Intellectually I understand the reasoning for it.

I thought things were getting better here in America. I truly did. This whole hate mongering being propagated by a presidential candidate is drawing the worst out in some people. People who had dissapeared into the woodwork until now are coming out of the gutters and spewing racial hate. Much of it aimed at the Mexican community, Mexicans must be the new black I guess.

I’m rambling, I’m tired. I’m also dissapointed that I will not live to see in my lifetime a country where only the content of your character and not the color of your skin (MLK) or your non-beliefs, or what you have between your legs and who you love mattered. It would be great if everyone was judged as an individual and not part of a larger group but alas, we humans are but one chromosome away from Chimpanzees and it shows (C. Hitchens).

If you read this far my apologies, however I at least warned you.

I agree with you, I am not denying discrimination exists (I feel like I am repeating myself ) I am saying that identity politics , forcing people into "groups" and thus defining them as members of those groups with all the stereotypes that apply to that group is one of the main , most significant factors that discrimination is perpetuated.

Like Morgan Freeman Said in the clip I posted.

"How do we put an end to racism"

"Stop talking about it"

Of course he din't mean just talking about it, he meant stopping policies that target race, stop "Black history month" , stop affirmative action...

I also understand that this approach seems counterintuitive , but I believe that this is not only the best way but also may be the only way.

Quote: But due to a history which neither you or I had anything to do with we are feeling the effects of the crimes of our ancestors. Viscerally I despise it. Intellectually I understand the reasoning for it.

Ok, but this can be applied in US or in just few more "white dominated" countries, I do not think that this can be applied as a blanket blame on all white people.
I certainly don't think that reasoning applies to me.
There was never black slaves in Serbia , and we were 450 years under the Ottoman empire for example. Do I now have a right to expect Izel to compensate me for crimes her ancestors committed over my ancestors?
And we committed our own crimes against others. Europeans conquered Africa and Middle east , and Africans and Middle easterners conquered large parts of Europe too , fakn Vikings rained terror across Europe for ages, Germans killed millions , black slaves sold to Americans were enslaved by other black people and so on and so on.
What I am saying is that trough out history everybody committed crimes against everybody , but now white people feel the need to compensate people that they committed crimes against even tho the same people also committed crimes against white people when they were in position to do so?
This is intellectually understandable? I don't think so.
The fact (arguably ) that white people committed more crimes against others then they were victims of themselves is just circumstance, more military might for most of the time throughout history. Not because white people are worst kids on the yard.


(27-08-2016 10:49 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 09:50 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I applaud you for your efforts, but I think you're wasting your time. I've never met a SJW whose mind could be swayed by reason. They are as entrenched and invested in their world view as the fanatic religious right on the other side.

Had to go to the Urban Dictionary to figure out what SJW stood for. Shit, I hope that’s not me. I don’t think it describes my intentions or my actions irl. Consider

No, it's not you. For what it's worth I think that you are a very reasonable person.

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28-08-2016, 08:43 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 09:01 AM by Slowminded.)
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 04:22 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 08:00 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  What I am saying is that division of people based on artificially made up "groups" is bullshit identity politics.
I am saying that people are not groups they belong to, they are individuals.
I am saying that once you start treating people like individuals and not a members of the group they belong to , then and only then they will be judged solely by merit and content of their character by teachers, employers, judges.....and then their skin color , religion, gender....will be insignificant and you will have equal opportunity and level playing field for everyone.
Not for every "group", but for every individual. This is what society should strive for.

Morgan Freeman hits the nail on the head here , makes the point I am trying to make perfectly





What I am also saying is that you can't treat every white person as privileged because most of the privileged are whites.
There is no difference between that and treating every Muslim as a terrorist because most of the terrorists are Muslims.
You see, when you put it into perspective how clear it is how stupid and wrong that is.



Again, identity politics, only problem comes from not judging people on merit but on group they belong to. You don't need representation of your ethnicity in i.e. field of mathematics to be able to solve a math problem, do you?
If you are a mathematician then you are a mathematician. But if you insist that you are a native women mathematician , then representation of your ethnicity and gender in the field may present itself as a problem that you created by yourself.






Why did you present your stats in such a manner? When you mention lower class you only present the chances of them improving their situation but with the middle class you include the chances of them staying in their class too.
If you exclude chances of middle class to stay in middle class I assume that their chances of improving would be similar to the chances of lower class to improve, right?
In a free market society you will always have lower, middle and upper classes economically and it is hard to dig yourself out of poverty. So what? Life isn't fair?
Omg, people don't all have the same starting positions, how cruel the world is. Excuse my cold heart when it comes to this , but all those "groups" that you find horribly oppressed and underprivileged in the US or in Canada ( you are Canadian, right? ) have on average significantly better starting point and more opportunities than I had.



Yeah, well, I don't have the stats you mention to break down so I can't deny or confirm that.


Oh, c'mon, this is....bollocks (British expression, I like it )


You mean Asians? I refer you to the data I posted earlier that show that is Asians, not whites , who are most economically successful ethnic group in US.

You turn on the tv and you see mostly white people? How strange is that, in a country where most of the population is white? I bet when you turn on the tv in Nigeria you gonna see mostly black people and in China you gonna see Asian people.

I fail to see how seeing white people on tv is benefiting white people watching them but...

Anyway , when you turn the tv in US you gonna see a black president, black Attorney General, if you want to watch sports you gonna see mostly black athletes , music ...movies, plenty of black artists. Maybe you prefer Oprah.
I don't have the data , but I would be willing to bet a lot of money that black people in US are in fact overrepresented in media considering they are only 13% of population.
Before all of this BLM bullshit I thought that blacks make almost half of the US population based on the media representation, that was my impression.

I won't address every example you made , it is mostly insignificant or subjective stuff


Oh, really?

Let me introduce you to USA Olympic basketball team

[Image: 28jju40.jpg]

So...classic example of institutional racism against whites in basketball ? Must be, right? Otherwise we would have equal representation?

Now FC would say that this is not a good example because basketball is a raw meritocracy but I would suggest that a job market is also , or at least it should be a raw meritocracy as well.


I don't think that white man have anything inherent to their ethnicity and sex that makes them more likely to succeed either , but that doesn't mean that results will follow in a way that you find to be a sign of equality by no means.

I am familiar with Morgan Freeman's views. I share his view on Black History month. Simply because US history is black history. I prefer to just study history as is. Rather than with a purpose of creating saints and villains. No group has a monopoly or a deficit on either. I disagree with him that racism disappears if you don't talk about it. That is idealistic, but also shockingly naive. The Maori who applies himself is not going to suddenly be received positively by people who "know" Maoris don't apply themselves, even though he talks no race.

I like the example of basketball. It shows what positive stereotyping can do. Blacks, at least in the US, are seen as gifted athletes, right out of the gate. Especially in basketball. Conversely, American whites, rarely consider themselves on an equal level, not because they can't jump or run, but because society reinforces the notion. Gifted American whites, who could excel in basketball are just channeled into other "more suitable" areas.

That's true, in America. However European whites, don't seem to have the same hangups or doubts about their basketball abilities. An increasing number of them, from Lithuania, former Yugoslavia, Spain, even Australia...are now making the NBA white again Smile.

Well, I don't find it naive. I find naive the idea that you can strongarm somebody into not being racist by legislation.
Btw, Morgan did really well for himself ( He's a God ffs Smile ) if that is any indicator of the quality of his views.

Anyway, basketball...congrats on Olympic gold , as expected ,you beaten the shit out of us in the final. Not complaining tho, silver medal is a great success.

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28-08-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Focusing on White
Though not addressed to me I’m going to comment since you make some excellent points.

(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And there you go, biases, resentment , racism and sexism successfully perpetuated by the policies created to destroy them.

I think this is true, quite the conundrum.

(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)‘Slowminded Wrote:  How successful those policies are in stopping racism and improving the general situation of black population in US....well I can see that in the news.
More black people on social welfare and food stamps then ever, racial tension trough the roof, riots , violence....great job.
Just a little bit more successful and and you gonna have a full blown race war on your hands.

There has been a black president sitting in the Oval Office for eight years. Something completely unthinkable until 2008, so there’s that.

As for social welfare and food stamps I’d like to see some citations please, specifically demonstrating that it is due to racial issues and not the economy.

As for race tensions this hasn’t directly come about because of “affirmative action”, the violence is a product, imo, of a small segment of the population that is scapegoating the other, it is being perpetrated by both sides and they are both wrong.

(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)‘Slowminded Wrote:  Yeah, I guess I am pretty fed up with being guilty for everything that is wrong in the world. As a white heterosexual able bodied man I am the most guilty person that has ever lived on this planet it seems.
Seems that I am by default guilty of racism, sexism, ableism , guilty of oppression over women, minorities , LGBT population, rapist waiting to happen, and of course as a Serb I am also a genocidal maniac. Weeping

If you were to change the word white to black, Mexican, Maori, Aborigine, Gypsy or any other minority on the face of this planet it shines some light on how those people feel.

It isn’t right and no one individual should have to suffer because of being lumped with a group they belong to, ever. EVER. And yet it is happening to you and it has happened to me and it happens all around the world, every day, millions of times.

As for being a Serb, yeah, I wanted to talk to you about that. Angel

(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You can call it White fragility or whatever shaming name you want, but I have nothing to apologize for and nothing to feel guilty about.
I hold myself responsible for my own actions and for my own actions only , to anybody who tries to hold me responsible for actions of others because we share same gender or skin color or nationality my response is, and always will be "fuck you and fuck off" ( This is not addressed to you )

I’m with you 100%. Unless you or I are personally guilty of “racism, sexism, ableism, guilty of oppression over women, minorities , LGBT population” or being a “genocidal maniac” we have every right to tell anyone who holds us responsible to go fuck themselves.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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28-08-2016, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 09:38 AM by SYZ.)
RE: Focusing on White
[double post]

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28-08-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: Focusing on White
[Image: Average-face-of-Women3-600x877.jpg]

Bear in mind that these are simply Photoshopped images produced from software at THIS site. They're not intended to be actual ethnological comparisons with any scientific validity. Note that they're all good looking or pretty, and none of them is more than 30 years of age—totally unrepresentative of a country's wider population.

—Just sayin' Sleepy

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28-08-2016, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 11:04 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Yes, there are biases , there are people who are racist. What you don't get, what I am trying to unsuccessfully convey to you is that you are perpetuating those biases trough affirmative actions and trough policies that define and target specific groups based on race and gender.

Let me give you an example , if I am about to hire somebody and have in front of me two, on paper equally competent people , if I know that one of them got to college trough affirmative action , if I know that he/she received leniency trough college because "we need more of "X group" "in STEM fields , if, because of current social atmosphere I believe that there is a reasonable chance that this person will use race/gender baiting , that this person is going to pull victim card on me...guess who I am NOT hiring.
Now, you can force me to hire this person trough enforcing race/gender quotas and I am going to resent it, and other people in the company are going to resent it , and the equally or more competent person who didn't get the job because of the quotas is going to resent it.
And there you go, biases, resentment , racism and sexism successfully perpetuated by the policies created to destroy them.

How successful those policies are in stopping racism and improving the general situation of black population in US....well I can see that in the news.
More black people on social welfare and food stamps then ever, racial tension trough the roof, riots , violence....great job.
Just a little bit more successful and and you gonna have a full blown race war on your hands.

White fragility Rolleyes

Yeah, I guess I am pretty fed up with being guilty for everything that is wrong in the world. As a white heterosexual able bodied man I am the most guilty person that has ever lived on this planet it seems.
Seems that I am by default guilty of racism, sexism, ableism , guilty of oppression over women, minorities , LGBT population, rapist waiting to happen, and of course as a Serb I am also a genocidal maniac. Weeping

This is some kind of a secular version of Christianity's original sin? I was born guilty?
I rejected that concept when it comes from Christianity and I reject it when it comes from "progressives" .
Why do some atheists buy into this shit I can't understand.
Once a cultist , always a cultist , I guess.

You can call it White fragility or whatever shaming name you want, but I have nothing to apologize for and nothing to feel guilty about.
I hold myself responsible for my own actions and for my own actions only , to anybody who tries to hold me responsible for actions of others because we share same gender or skin color or nationality my response is, and always will be "fuck you and fuck off" ( This is not addressed to you )

Why don' you just read the PDF about White Fragility? It's only 17 pages long and is available to download from the wikipedia article. It present a very interesting phenomenon that you are exihibitting almost at perfection and a well supported theory as for its root cause. It's written by a sociology professor specialised in multicultural studies and with a good experience of teaching about racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the workplace. She is a specialist of this sort of conversations. It's not written an a opposition style (but you might find it unpleasent at two points since it affects you directly) and at no point does it say that you are responsible for terrible things that happenned in the past or that you are somewhat racist. It does mention how your non-racist view of the world (a very good thing in most cisrcomstances), can feed racial stereotypes and discrimination in a pretty devious way and make you feel ashamned and incomfortable when there is no reason to be.

Of course we can argue on the merit of Afirmative actions or this or that method. I personaly aren't a big fan of positive discrimination laws because it reduce and belittle the achievement of those person in the minds of many. I prefer educatiion seminars for employers and hiring personel, grants for study attributed to people who are going in domains that defy stereotypical representation or for especially poor community, increase the financement of public schools, etc.

PS: racial violence is on the decrease and since the 70's the Black community has made great improvement in term of wealth disparity next to other groups. Racial violence and poverty is like gun violence. It looks terrible and worse every year, but actualy its slowly declining (OK, it has recoiled in the last 6-7 years or so because of the financial crisis of 2007-2008, but its recovering the lost ground and still has much to do to be erased). Could it be possible that the media you are consuming make you feel under attack more often than not?

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28-08-2016, 11:38 AM
RE: Focusing on White
Affirmative action is one of the more misunderstood aspects of attempts to balance racial opportunities. Opponents usually point out that

1) it allows unqualified candidates to steal jobs from qualified candidates.
2) it is unfair because it's discrimination against whites.

On paper all that seems correct.

In practice? Highly debatable. Actually laughable if not tragic.

In almost 20 years working in software development, I have worked with all sorts of people from many racial backgrounds. A few blacks, lots of Indians, though mostly white males.

My experience is purely on software development - I don't know much about other areas. Almost all the blacks I have worked with have tended to be exceptional. Often the best, or nearly the best on the teams. Whenever I see a black dude walk onto a project, chances are he has earned it. People are simply not going to take chances on an average black dude.

If we assume they are getting hired because of affirmative action, it would simply mean these talented candidates face an uphill task in a "normal" playing field. In an ideal world, these guys do not even need any of that AA stuff to be hired. Yet some companies will only hire them on that basis. Abusing their hiring as counting towards their quota of blacks. It is insulting because there is a perception of favoritism, where in reality there is none. Out goes argument number 1.

I have worked with super talented whites as well. But also, woefully inept ones. So inept that it always surprised me how they managed to NOT get fired. They get countless opportunities to fail and learn from it. For comparison, I have seen an Indian lady sent packing after a week for not being up to expectations. If there is discrimination against qualified whites...Me? I will look at this group of schmoozers as the culprits before I blame the blacks hired through AA as taking jobs from their rightful owners.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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28-08-2016, 12:23 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 11:38 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Affirmative action is one of the more misunderstood aspects of attempts to balance racial opportunities. Opponents usually point out that

1) it allows unqualified candidates to steal jobs from qualified candidates.
2) it is unfair because it's discrimination against whites.

On paper all that seems correct.

In practice? Highly debatable. Actually laughable if not tragic.

In almost 20 years working in software development, I have worked with all sorts of people from many racial backgrounds. A few blacks, lots of Indians, though mostly white males.

My experience is purely on software development - I don't know much about other areas. Almost all the blacks I have worked with have tended to be exceptional. Often the best, or nearly the best on the teams. Whenever I see a black dude walk onto a project, chances are he has earned it. People are simply not going to take chances on an average black dude.

If we assume they are getting hired because of affirmative action, it would simply mean these talented candidates face an uphill task in a "normal" playing field. In an ideal world, these guys do not even need any of that AA stuff to be hired. Yet some companies will only hire them on that basis. Abusing their hiring as counting towards their quota of blacks. It is insulting because there is a perception of favoritism, where in reality there is none. Out goes argument number 1.

I have worked with super talented whites as well. But also, woefully inept ones. So inept that it always surprised me how they managed to NOT get fired. They get countless opportunities to fail and learn from it. For comparison, I have seen an Indian lady sent packing after a week for not being up to expectations. If there is discrimination against qualified whites...Me? I will look at this group of schmoozers as the culprits before I blame the blacks hired through AA as taking jobs from their rightful owners.

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28-08-2016, 01:49 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 05:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I get that part. If the individual applies himself, he succeeds. And you have examples. But when I listen to the description "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.". I have to wonder, isn't it about the individual?

EDIT:

The statement is all-encompassing. It automatically paints someone like Winston Peters as belonging to a group that is not playing by the rules. When do you judge people as individuals or as part of a group?
It makes sense, once in a while to do some demographic analysis. From that we can discover some interesting facts. e.g. Maori in general aren't getting high paid jobs, aren't getting wealthy.
But rather than jump to wild conclusions e.g. White priviledge.
It makes sense to dig further.

In order to get high paid jobs, you generally need a degree.
Are Maori getting the degrees?
No, ok are they getting good grades at school?
No, Oh, why not?

Now I agree that there isn't really a genetic difference with regards to intelligence.
But there is a cultural difference. Parenting is part of that culture.

Why do Chinese do so well? Is it because we have yellow priviledge going on in NZ?
Seems to me in the Chinese culture there is a huge empasis on the kids, their education etc. Most Chinese kids come home from school and their parents get them doing homework (even if the teachers haven't given any homework). Many Chinese pay for after school tutors for their kids.
Their kids work very hard, and their parent are there pushing them and giving them lots of attention.
Whites less so.
And I assume Maori even less so than whites.

There is no priviledge. It is all about the home (in my unqualified opinion).

I certainly didn't get special lessons at school. I went to the same schools as the Maori.
I didn't get good grades because of my whiteness. It's about the effort that I put in.

If we put Maori into a bubble, set a lower standard for them, give them their own awards, then they will not be pressured at the national standard level. In order to get the award they don't have to work hard, so why bother? In order to get a job, they don't need the qualifications because due to the quota system they can get a public sector job without trying. So why bother.
It seems with "affirmative action" the Maori don't even have to try. It doesn't matter what they do, they'll get the job given to them. It becomes a right rather than something they have to work and compete for.

Affirmative action is something that helps to keep a particular race down, keep them below the national standard. And then of those that get the job despite their poor qualifications and poor attitude, are they supposed to be help up as role models? Look Maori can do it, just look at such and such. But the problem of this artificial privileged Maori is that this person does have the wrong attitude and is unqualified and lacks the skills for the job. Often they do something poor, whether it is criminally negligent or just negligent, they seem to have the attitude that things are owed to them. They end up being an example of why businesses should be weary of hiring Maori. So it makes the "institutionalised racism" worse.

Maori need to learn that they need to compete against everyone else. They need to learn that they need to apply themselves. They need to be putting in the required effort to compete against the Chinese and the Whites. If they do that they will develop a successful attitude, they will get high positions and they will be great role models.
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