Focusing on White
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28-08-2016, 03:05 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 11:00 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 06:50 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Yes, there are biases , there are people who are racist. What you don't get, what I am trying to unsuccessfully convey to you is that you are perpetuating those biases trough affirmative actions and trough policies that define and target specific groups based on race and gender.

Let me give you an example , if I am about to hire somebody and have in front of me two, on paper equally competent people , if I know that one of them got to college trough affirmative action , if I know that he/she received leniency trough college because "we need more of "X group" "in STEM fields , if, because of current social atmosphere I believe that there is a reasonable chance that this person will use race/gender baiting , that this person is going to pull victim card on me...guess who I am NOT hiring.
Now, you can force me to hire this person trough enforcing race/gender quotas and I am going to resent it, and other people in the company are going to resent it , and the equally or more competent person who didn't get the job because of the quotas is going to resent it.
And there you go, biases, resentment , racism and sexism successfully perpetuated by the policies created to destroy them.

How successful those policies are in stopping racism and improving the general situation of black population in US....well I can see that in the news.
More black people on social welfare and food stamps then ever, racial tension trough the roof, riots , violence....great job.
Just a little bit more successful and and you gonna have a full blown race war on your hands.

White fragility Rolleyes

Yeah, I guess I am pretty fed up with being guilty for everything that is wrong in the world. As a white heterosexual able bodied man I am the most guilty person that has ever lived on this planet it seems.
Seems that I am by default guilty of racism, sexism, ableism , guilty of oppression over women, minorities , LGBT population, rapist waiting to happen, and of course as a Serb I am also a genocidal maniac. Weeping

This is some kind of a secular version of Christianity's original sin? I was born guilty?
I rejected that concept when it comes from Christianity and I reject it when it comes from "progressives" .
Why do some atheists buy into this shit I can't understand.
Once a cultist , always a cultist , I guess.

You can call it White fragility or whatever shaming name you want, but I have nothing to apologize for and nothing to feel guilty about.
I hold myself responsible for my own actions and for my own actions only , to anybody who tries to hold me responsible for actions of others because we share same gender or skin color or nationality my response is, and always will be "fuck you and fuck off" ( This is not addressed to you )

Why don' you just read the PDF about White Fragility? It's only 17 pages long and is available to download from the wikipedia article. It present a very interesting phenomenon that you are exihibitting almost at perfection and a well supported theory as for its root cause. It's written by a sociology professor specialised in multicultural studies and with a good experience of teaching about racism, discrimination and stereotypes in the workplace. She is a specialist of this sort of conversations. It's not written an a opposition style (but you might find it unpleasent at two points since it affects you directly) and at no point does it say that you are responsible for terrible things that happenned in the past or that you are somewhat racist. It does mention how your non-racist view of the world (a very good thing in most cisrcomstances), can feed racial stereotypes and discrimination in a pretty devious way and make you feel ashamned and incomfortable when there is no reason to be.

Of course we can argue on the merit of Afirmative actions or this or that method. I personaly aren't a big fan of positive discrimination laws because it reduce and belittle the achievement of those person in the minds of many. I prefer educatiion seminars for employers and hiring personel, grants for study attributed to people who are going in domains that defy stereotypical representation or for especially poor community, increase the financement of public schools, etc.

PS: racial violence is on the decrease and since the 70's the Black community has made great improvement in term of wealth disparity next to other groups. Racial violence and poverty is like gun violence. It looks terrible and worse every year, but actualy its slowly declining (OK, it has recoiled in the last 6-7 years or so because of the financial crisis of 2007-2008, but its recovering the lost ground and still has much to do to be erased). Could it be possible that the media you are consuming make you feel under attack more often than not?

I've read it. Enough of it to be precise so I can make my judgment on it. And I find it to be bullshit, sorry.
It reminds me of a "You are an atheist just because you are angry at god" argument.
In the same manner, it presupposes the premise of god/white/male privilege existing and then deals with the reasons why you are rejecting that "truth". In that way completely dismisses any arguments made against original premise while in the same time offers no evidence to support the original premise but holds it to be self evident and demands that I accept it as such.
But I don't accept those premises to be self evident , if I did I wouldn't be arguing against them and there would be no need for her to explain to me why I am doing it.

Btw, the article is written with specifically Americans in mind, like I said, I live in all white country , there is probably not even a thousand black people in whole country so I don't have any other race to be privileged over anyway.

Also, I don't feel ashamed and uncomfortable, precisely because I know I have no reason to be.

Quote:Could it be possible that the media you are consuming make you feel under attack more often than not?
Yes, this is exactly why I am arguing against it. I can't escape PC culture anymore , it's fakn everywhere, it passed the point when I can tolerate it and just roll my eyes , now I am trying to raise my voice against it.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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28-08-2016, 05:14 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2016 08:04 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 03:05 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I've read it. Enough of it to be precise so I can make my judgment on it. And I find it to be bullshit, sorry.
It reminds me of a "You are an atheist just because you are angry at god" argument.
In the same manner, it presupposes the premise of god/white/male privilege existing and then deals with the reasons why you are rejecting that "truth". In that way completely dismisses any arguments made against original premise while in the same time offers no evidence to support the original premise but holds it to be self-evident and demands that I accept it as such.
But I don't accept those premises to be self-evident , if I did I wouldn't be arguing against them and there would be no need for her to explain to me why I am doing it.

This is a copy of the bibliography of the article on White Fragility. The article itself was published in an education newspaper that has process of peer review and so are over half these references (the others are monographic books published and supported by various university). There is over 25 of them. This seems to me like a particularly well research piece, published by a very good source, much more pertinent when talking about racism and privilege than your personal opinion or mine (or that of Morgan Freeman).

If you need more sources that explain, detail and analyse how being a white men in plural (white dominated) country is an advantage, I can present you with over 20 other books and research, the eldest one dating from 1936, where the term «White Privilege» was first coined, to today. Arguing that there is no such thing as «White Privilege» appears to me as denialism. If you have any sort of articles written and supported by a peer review journal in the domain of sociology, psychology, social anthropology or education that demonstrate that there is no such thing (or that its much different than how it’s usually represented) then please share it with me for I have never found anything of that sort yet.

You call it bullshit, but you don't say why or how. Yes, you are right on the fact that this piece is written with a plural society in mind and thus doesn't directly affect a person in Serbia (even though someone might make the argument about it after few football riots and the general treatment of Rom). In the context of New-Zealand or Western Europe and North America, it is.

American Association of Colleges for Teacher Education (AACTE). (1994). Teacher education
pipeline: Schools, colleges, and departments of education. Washington, DC:
Allen, D. (1996). Knowledge, politics, culture, and gender: A discourse perspective. Canadian
Journal of Nursing Research, 28(1), 95-102.
Bourdieu, P. (1993). The Field of Cultural Production. New York: Columbia University
Press.
Bonilla-Silva, E. (2006). Racism without racists: Color-blind racism and the persistence
of racial inequality in the United States (2nd ed). New York: Rowman & Littlefield.
68 • International Journal of Critical Pedagogy
Casey J. Dawkins. (2004). Recent Evidence on the Continuing Causes of Black-White
Residential Segregation. Journal of Urban Affairs, 26(3), 379-400.
Clark, K.B. (1963). Prejudice and your child. Boston: Beacon Press.
Derman-Sparks, L., & Phillips, C. (1997). Teaching/learning anti-racism: A developmental
approach. New York: Teachers College Press.
Derman-Sparks, L., Ramsey, P. & Olsen Edwards, J. (2006). What If All the Kids Are
White?: Anti-bias Multicultural Education With Young Children And Families. New
York: Teachers College Press.
DiAngelo, Robin J. (2010a). Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse
of Individualism in Anti-racist Education. InterActions: UCLA Journal of
Education and Information Studies, 6(1) . Retrieved from http://escholarship.org/uc/
item/5fm4h8wm
DiAngelo, R. (2006b). My race didn’t trump my class: Using oppression to face privilege.
Multicultural Perspectives, 8(1), 51-56.
DiAngelo, R. (2006c). “I’m leaving!”: White fragility in racial dialogue. In B. McMahon
& D. Armstrong (Eds.), Inclusion in Urban Educational Environments: Addressing
Issues of Diversity, Equity, and Social Justice (pp. 213-240). Centre for Leadership
and Diversity. Ontario Institute for Studies in Education of the University of Toronto.
Doane, A.W. (1997). White identity and race relations in the 1990s. In Carter, G.L. (Ed),
Perspectives on Current Social Problems, edited by (pp. 151-159). Boston: Allyn and
Bacon.
Dyer, R. (1997). White. New York: Routledge.
Feagin, J. R. (2006). Systematic Racism: A theory of oppression. New York: Routledge.
Fine, M. (1997). Witnessing Whiteness. In M. Fine, L. Weis, C. Powell, & L. Wong, (Eds.),
Off White: Readings on race, power, and society (pp. 57-65). New York: Routledge.
Fine, M. (1997). Introduction. In M. Fine, L. Weis, C. Powell & L. Wong (Eds.), Off White:
Readings on race, power and society (p. vii-xii). New York: Routledge.
Flax, J. (1998). American dream in Black and White: The Clarence Thomas hearings. New
York: Cornell University Press.
Frankenberg, E., Lee, C. & Orfield, G. (2003). A multiracial society with segregated
schools: Are we losing the dream? The Civil Rights Project. Retrieved from http://
http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/r..._full.php.
Frankenberg, R. (1997). Introduction: Local Whitenesses, localizing Whiteness. In R.
Frankenberg (Ed.), Displacing Whiteness: Essays in social and cultural criticism (pp.
1-33.). Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
Frankenberg, R. (1993). The social construction of Whiteness: White women, race matters.
Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
Frakenberg, R. (2001). Mirage of an unmarked Whiteness. In B. Rasmussen, E. Klinerberg,
I. Nexica, M. Wray (Ed.), The making and unmaking of Whiteness (pp. 72-96).
Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
Gee, J.P. (1999). An introduction to discourse analysis: Theory and method. London: Routledge.
Goldberg, D.T. (1993). Racist culture. Oxford, England: Blackwell.
Hilliard, A. (1992). Racism: Its origins and how it works. Paper presented at the meeting of
the Mid-West Association for the Education of Young Children, Madison, WI.
hooks, b. (1995). Killing rage. New York: Henry Holt & Company.
hooks, b. (1992). Black looks: Race and representation. Boston, MA: South End Press.
Horton, J. & Scott, D. (2004). White students’ voices in multicultural teacher education
preparation. Multicultural Education, 11(4) Retreived from http://findarticles.com/p/
articles/mi_qa3935/is_200407/ai_n9414143/
White Fragility • 69
Johnson, H.B. & Shapiro, T.M. (2003). Good Neighborhoods, Good Schools: Race and the
“Good Choices” of White Families. In Doane, A.W & Bonilla-Silva, E. (Eds). White
Out: The Continuing Significance of Racism (pp. 173-187). New York: Routledge.
Lee, T. (1996). Unraveling the “model-minority” stereotype: Listening to Asian-American
youth. New York: Teachers College Press.
Macedo, D., & Bartolome, L. (1999). Dancing with bigotry: Beyond the politics of tolerance.
New York: St. Martin’s Press.
McGowan, J. (2000). Multicultural teaching: African-American faculty classroom teaching
experiences in predominantly White colleges and universities. Multicultural Education,
8(2), 19-22.
McIntosh, P. (1988). White privilege and male privilege: A personal account of coming
to see correspondence through work in women’s studies. In M. Anderson, & P. Hill
Collins (Eds.), Race, class, and gender: An anthology (pp. 94-105). Belmont, CA:
Wadsworth.
Mills, C. (1999). The racial contract. NY: Cornell University Press.
Morrison, T. (1992). Playing in the dark. New York: Random House.
Nagda, B., Zuniga, X., & Sevig, T. (2002). Bridging differences through peer facilitated
intergroup dialogues. In S. Hatcher (Ed.), Peer programs on a college campus:
Theory, training, and the voices of the peers (pp. 25-41). San Diego, CA: New Resources.
Nakayama, T., & Martin, J. (1999). Whiteness: The communication of social identity.
Thousand Oakes, CA: Sage.
O’Donnell, J. (1998). Engaging students’ recognition of racial identity. In Chavez, R.C.
& O’Donnell, J. (Eds.), Speaking the unpleasant: the politics of (non) engagement in
the multicultural education terrain (pp. 56-68). Albany, NY: State University of New
York Press.
Omi, M. & Winant, H. (1986). Racial Formtion in the United States. New York: Routledge.
Powell, L. (1997). The achievement (k)not: Whiteness and ‘Black Underachievement’. In
M. Fine, L. Powell, C. Weis, & L. Wong (Eds.), Off White: Readings on race, power
and society (pp. 3 -12). New York: Routledge.
Sleeter, C. (1993). How White teachers construct race. In C. McCarthy & W. Crichlow
(Eds.), Race identity and representation in education (pp.157-171). New York: Routledge.
Sleeter, C. (1996). White silence, White solidarity. In N. Ignatiev, & J. Garvey (Eds.), Race
Traitors. New York: Routledge.
Smith, Andrea (2005). Conquest: Sexual violence and American Indian genocide. Cambridge,
MA: Southend Press.
Snyder, T. (1998). Digest of Education Statistics. Washington, DC: National Center for
Education Statistics, Department of Education.
Tatum, B. (1997). “Why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?”: And other
conversations about race. New York: Basic Books.
Trepagnier, B. (2006). Silent racism: How well-meaning white people perpetuate the racial
divide. Boulder, CO: Paridigm Publishers.
Van Dijk, T.A. (1993). Principles of critical discourse analysis. Discourse and Society,
4(2), 249-283.
Van Dijk, T.A. (1993). Analyzing racism through discourse analysis: Some methodological
reflections. In J. H. Stanfield, & R. M. Dennis (Eds.), Race and ethnicity in research
method (pp.92-134). London: Sage.
Vodde, R. (2001). De-centering privilege in social work education: Whose job is it anyway?
Journal of Race, Gender and Class, 7(4), 139-160
70 • International Journal of Critical Pedagogy
Weber, L. (2001). Understanding race, class, gender, and sexuality: A conceptual framework.
New York: McGraw-Hill.
Wells, L. (1985). A group-as-a-whole perspective and its theoretical roots. In A. Coleman,
& M. Geller (Eds.), Group Relations Reader 2 (22-34). Washington, D.C.: A.K. Rice
Institute.
Whitehead, K.A. & Wittig, M.A. (2005). Discursive Management of Resistance to a Multicultural
Education Programme. Qualitative Research in Psychology,1(3), pp. 267-
284.
Wing Sue, D. (2003). Overcoming our racism: The journey to liberation. San Francisco:
Jossey-Bass.
Wise, T. (2003). Whites swim in racial preference. Retrieved from http://www.academic.
udayton.edu/race/04needs/affirm20.htm.
Yamamoto, G. (2001). Something about this subject makes it hard to name. In M. Andersen,
& P. H. Collins (Eds.), Race, class and gender: An Anthology (pp. 89-93).
Belmont, CA: Wadsworth.
Zúñiga, X., Nagda, B., & Sevig, T. (2002). Intergroup dialogues: An educational model for
cultivating engagement across differences. Equity & Excellence in Education, 6(1),
115-132.

PS: If you are still willing, you can read this short piece by Ph.D in psychology on the subject of «race blindness» and its impact on racism (it’s supported by five peer review articles on the subject should you care about good sourcing).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cul...orm-racism

PPS: you might want to read those two on the basis of racial discrimination in housing and employment (the first one is dated, I know, but came after the laws preventing this sort of discrimination officialy), the second one is bit heavier, but much more recent. You might also research on Neo-Racism since ti touches the subject. Of course these study are unly valid in Western Europe and North America (generaly speaking).

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED182397
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915460/

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29-08-2016, 07:00 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 05:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I get that part. If the individual applies himself, he succeeds. And you have examples. But when I listen to the description "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.". I have to wonder, isn't it about the individual?

EDIT:

The statement is all-encompassing. It automatically paints someone like Winston Peters as belonging to a group that is not playing by the rules. When do you judge people as individuals or as part of a group?
It makes sense, once in a while to do some demographic analysis. From that we can discover some interesting facts. e.g. Maori in general aren't getting high paid jobs, aren't getting wealthy.
But rather than jump to wild conclusions e.g. White priviledge.
It makes sense to dig further.

In order to get high paid jobs, you generally need a degree.
Are Maori getting the degrees?
No, ok are they getting good grades at school?
No, Oh, why not?

Now I agree that there isn't really a genetic difference with regards to intelligence.
But there is a cultural difference. Parenting is part of that culture.

Why do Chinese do so well? Is it because we have yellow priviledge going on in NZ?
Seems to me in the Chinese culture there is a huge empasis on the kids, their education etc. Most Chinese kids come home from school and their parents get them doing homework (even if the teachers haven't given any homework). Many Chinese pay for after school tutors for their kids.
Their kids work very hard, and their parent are there pushing them and giving them lots of attention.
Whites less so.
And I assume Maori even less so than whites.

There is no priviledge. It is all about the home (in my unqualified opinion).

I certainly didn't get special lessons at school. I went to the same schools as the Maori.
I didn't get good grades because of my whiteness. It's about the effort that I put in.

If we put Maori into a bubble, set a lower standard for them, give them their own awards, then they will not be pressured at the national standard level. In order to get the award they don't have to work hard, so why bother? In order to get a job, they don't need the qualifications because due to the quota system they can get a public sector job without trying. So why bother.
It seems with "affirmative action" the Maori don't even have to try. It doesn't matter what they do, they'll get the job given to them. It becomes a right rather than something they have to work and compete for.

Affirmative action is something that helps to keep a particular race down, keep them below the national standard. And then of those that get the job despite their poor qualifications and poor attitude, are they supposed to be help up as role models? Look Maori can do it, just look at such and such. But the problem of this artificial privileged Maori is that this person does have the wrong attitude and is unqualified and lacks the skills for the job. Often they do something poor, whether it is criminally negligent or just negligent, they seem to have the attitude that things are owed to them. They end up being an example of why businesses should be weary of hiring Maori. So it makes the "institutionalised racism" worse.

Maori need to learn that they need to compete against everyone else. They need to learn that they need to apply themselves. They need to be putting in the required effort to compete against the Chinese and the Whites. If they do that they will develop a successful attitude, they will get high positions and they will be great role models.

I agree with most of what you say. Except the notion that we notice race only in studies as some interesting new fact. Also we shouldn't need affirmative action, in an ideal situation. I am also impressed by e.g Chinese achievements in societies in which they are minorities. They obviously do a lot of things right. Often against great odds.

The term white privilege is likely the wrong term(IMO) for what its proponents try to convey. I just prefer to see it not so much as a privilege than a normal existence. Life can be fair or unfair to whites, but mostly in a "normal" way. By and large they can expect to be treated one way or another by merit alone. Their presence in most contexts, needs no explanation or clarification.

Normal should not be considered a privilege, because it suggests something that could be rightfully taken away. What do we say when others eventually achieve and become used to normal treatment? Is it really a privilege to be treated fairly?

Back to Maori. A thought exercise. A white New Zealander who is familiar with Maori behavior, from certain studies no less, meets a casually dressed Maori on the street. The Maori like Winston Peters is a high achiever, but this fact is unknown to the white observer.

It is not a stretch that this Maori will be seen, at least initially, in the same unflattering light as you have described them. There goes a dude that likely does not apply himself. Because people use generalizations for those that they don't know personally. As a result, the Maori gentleman enjoys a deficit of doubt.

People can and do perceive reactions and social cues. Even very subtle ones; homo sapiens has evolved to read such cues. Is it really so difficult to see that a Maori experiences society in a not normal way?

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-08-2016, 07:49 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 05:14 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 03:05 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I've read it. Enough of it to be precise so I can make my judgment on it. And I find it to be bullshit, sorry.
It reminds me of a "You are an atheist just because you are angry at god" argument.
In the same manner, it presupposes the premise of god/white/male privilege existing and then deals with the reasons why you are rejecting that "truth". In that way completely dismisses any arguments made against original premise while in the same time offers no evidence to support the original premise but holds it to be self-evident and demands that I accept it as such.
But I don't accept those premises to be self-evident , if I did I wouldn't be arguing against them and there would be no need for her to explain to me why I am doing it.

This is a copy of the bibliography of the article on White Fragility. The article itself was published in an education newspaper that has process of peer review and so are over half these references (the others are monographic books published and supported by various university). There is over 25 of them. This seems to me like a particularly well research piece, published by a very good source, much more pertinent when talking about racism and privilege than your personal opinion or mine (or that of Morgan Freeman).

If you need more sources that explain, detail and analyse how being a white men in plural (white dominated) country is an advantage, I can present you with over 20 other books and research, the eldest one dating from 1936, where the term «White Privilege» was first coined, to today. Arguing that there is no such thing as «White Privilege» appears to me as denialism. If you have any sort of articles written and supported by a peer review journal in the domain of sociology, psychology, social anthropology or education that demonstrate that there is no such thing (or that its much different than how it’s usually represented) then please share it with me for I have never found anything of that sort yet.

You call it bullshit, but you don't say why or how. Yes, you are right on the fact that this piece is written with a plural society in mind and thus doesn't directly affect a person in Serbia (even though someone might make the argument about it after few football riots and the general treatment of Rom). In the context of New-Zealand or Western Europe and North America, it is.

American Association of Colleges for Teacher Education (AACTE). (1994). Teacher education
pipeline: Schools, colleges, and departments of education. Washington, DC:
Allen, D. (1996). Knowledge, politics, culture, and gender: A discourse perspective. Canadian
Journal of Nursing Research, 28(1), 95-102.
Bourdieu, P. (1993). The Field of Cultural Production. New York: Columbia University
Press.
Bonilla-Silva, E. (2006). Racism without racists: Color-blind racism and the persistence
of racial inequality in the United States (2nd ed). New York: Rowman & Littlefield.
68 • International Journal of Critical Pedagogy
Casey J. Dawkins. (2004). Recent Evidence on the Continuing Causes of Black-White
Residential Segregation. Journal of Urban Affairs, 26(3), 379-400.
Clark, K.B. (1963). Prejudice and your child. Boston: Beacon Press.
Derman-Sparks, L., & Phillips, C. (1997). Teaching/learning anti-racism: A developmental
approach. New York: Teachers College Press.
Derman-Sparks, L., Ramsey, P. & Olsen Edwards, J. (2006). What If All the Kids Are
White?: Anti-bias Multicultural Education With Young Children And Families. New
York: Teachers College Press.
DiAngelo, Robin J. (2010a). Why Can’t We All Just Be Individuals?: Countering the Discourse
of Individualism in Anti-racist Education. InterActions: UCLA Journal of
Education and Information Studies, 6(1) . Retrieved from http://escholarship.org/uc/
item/5fm4h8wm
DiAngelo, R. (2006b). My race didn’t trump my class: Using oppression to face privilege.
Multicultural Perspectives, 8(1), 51-56.
DiAngelo, R. (2006c). “I’m leaving!”: White fragility in racial dialogue. In B. McMahon
& D. Armstrong (Eds.), Inclusion in Urban Educational Environments: Addressing
Issues of Diversity, Equity, and Social Justice (pp. 213-240). Centre for Leadership
and Diversity. Ontario Institute for Studies in Education of the University of Toronto.
Doane, A.W. (1997). White identity and race relations in the 1990s. In Carter, G.L. (Ed),
Perspectives on Current Social Problems, edited by (pp. 151-159). Boston: Allyn and
Bacon.
Dyer, R. (1997). White. New York: Routledge.
Feagin, J. R. (2006). Systematic Racism: A theory of oppression. New York: Routledge.
Fine, M. (1997). Witnessing Whiteness. In M. Fine, L. Weis, C. Powell, & L. Wong, (Eds.),
Off White: Readings on race, power, and society (pp. 57-65). New York: Routledge.
Fine, M. (1997). Introduction. In M. Fine, L. Weis, C. Powell & L. Wong (Eds.), Off White:
Readings on race, power and society (p. vii-xii). New York: Routledge.
Flax, J. (1998). American dream in Black and White: The Clarence Thomas hearings. New
York: Cornell University Press.
Frankenberg, E., Lee, C. & Orfield, G. (2003). A multiracial society with segregated
schools: Are we losing the dream? The Civil Rights Project. Retrieved from http://
http://www.civilrightsproject.ucla.edu/r..._full.php.
Frankenberg, R. (1997). Introduction: Local Whitenesses, localizing Whiteness. In R.
Frankenberg (Ed.), Displacing Whiteness: Essays in social and cultural criticism (pp.
1-33.). Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
Frankenberg, R. (1993). The social construction of Whiteness: White women, race matters.
Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
Frakenberg, R. (2001). Mirage of an unmarked Whiteness. In B. Rasmussen, E. Klinerberg,
I. Nexica, M. Wray (Ed.), The making and unmaking of Whiteness (pp. 72-96).
Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
Gee, J.P. (1999). An introduction to discourse analysis: Theory and method. London: Routledge.
Goldberg, D.T. (1993). Racist culture. Oxford, England: Blackwell.
Hilliard, A. (1992). Racism: Its origins and how it works. Paper presented at the meeting of
the Mid-West Association for the Education of Young Children, Madison, WI.
hooks, b. (1995). Killing rage. New York: Henry Holt & Company.
hooks, b. (1992). Black looks: Race and representation. Boston, MA: South End Press.
Horton, J. & Scott, D. (2004). White students’ voices in multicultural teacher education
preparation. Multicultural Education, 11(4) Retreived from http://findarticles.com/p/
articles/mi_qa3935/is_200407/ai_n9414143/
White Fragility • 69
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PS: If you are still willing, you can read this short piece by Ph.D in psychology on the subject of «race blindness» and its impact on racism (it’s supported by five peer review articles on the subject should you care about good sourcing).

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cul...orm-racism

PPS: you might want to read those two on the basis of racial discrimination in housing and employment (the first one is dated, I know, but came after the laws preventing this sort of discrimination officialy), the second one is bit heavier, but much more recent. You might also research on Neo-Racism since ti touches the subject. Of course these study are unly valid in Western Europe and North America (generaly speaking).

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED182397
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2915460/

I`ve read the boxing ring thread about feminism between you and was it Blackhand (?) and like with him , you and me seem to be talking past each other.

Let me remind you of few things I said in this thread

Quote:I agree with you, I am not denying discrimination exists

Quote:Yes, there are biases , there are people who are racist. What you don't get, what I am trying to unsuccessfully convey to you is that you are perpetuating those biases trough affirmative actions and trough policies that define and target specific groups based on race and gender.

I really don`t want to repeat myself again. I feel like I am forced to reject even the valid points you make because they come in inseparable ideological package I find unacceptable.
You are a good and smart guy , please don`t view this as a personal attack on you but I really think that you are unable too look at things outside of the ideological beliefs you hold thus we are both wasting our time. Vosur did warn me, didn`t he? Although I wouldn`t go as far to call you a SJW, I think better of you that that.

But since we are recommending material to each other , I will recommend you watch this video , it speaks about the biases in the field of sociology ( and it does cite serious peer reviewed studies and researches , it`s not just some guy talking out of his ass ) since you brought those studies up and some other stuff related to the subject we have in hand. I hope you are not going to deny the claims made in the video because I might call you out for "Liberal fragility" Tongue





http://heterodoxacademy.org/2015/09/14/b...diversity/

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29-08-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 01:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 05:50 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I get that part. If the individual applies himself, he succeeds. And you have examples. But when I listen to the description "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge.". I have to wonder, isn't it about the individual?

EDIT:

The statement is all-encompassing. It automatically paints someone like Winston Peters as belonging to a group that is not playing by the rules. When do you judge people as individuals or as part of a group?
It makes sense, once in a while to do some demographic analysis. From that we can discover some interesting facts. e.g. Maori in general aren't getting high paid jobs, aren't getting wealthy.
But rather than jump to wild conclusions e.g. White priviledge.
It makes sense to dig further.

In order to get high paid jobs, you generally need a degree.
Are Maori getting the degrees?
No, ok are they getting good grades at school?
No, Oh, why not?

Now I agree that there isn't really a genetic difference with regards to intelligence.
But there is a cultural difference. Parenting is part of that culture.

Why do Chinese do so well? Is it because we have yellow priviledge going on in NZ?
Seems to me in the Chinese culture there is a huge empasis on the kids, their education etc. Most Chinese kids come home from school and their parents get them doing homework (even if the teachers haven't given any homework). Many Chinese pay for after school tutors for their kids.
Their kids work very hard, and their parent are there pushing them and giving them lots of attention.
Whites less so.
And I assume Maori even less so than whites.

There is no priviledge. It is all about the home (in my unqualified opinion).

I certainly didn't get special lessons at school. I went to the same schools as the Maori.
I didn't get good grades because of my whiteness. It's about the effort that I put in.

If we put Maori into a bubble, set a lower standard for them, give them their own awards, then they will not be pressured at the national standard level. In order to get the award they don't have to work hard, so why bother? In order to get a job, they don't need the qualifications because due to the quota system they can get a public sector job without trying. So why bother.
It seems with "affirmative action" the Maori don't even have to try. It doesn't matter what they do, they'll get the job given to them. It becomes a right rather than something they have to work and compete for.

Affirmative action is something that helps to keep a particular race down, keep them below the national standard. And then of those that get the job despite their poor qualifications and poor attitude, are they supposed to be help up as role models? Look Maori can do it, just look at such and such. But the problem of this artificial privileged Maori is that this person does have the wrong attitude and is unqualified and lacks the skills for the job. Often they do something poor, whether it is criminally negligent or just negligent, they seem to have the attitude that things are owed to them. They end up being an example of why businesses should be weary of hiring Maori. So it makes the "institutionalised racism" worse.

Maori need to learn that they need to compete against everyone else. They need to learn that they need to apply themselves. They need to be putting in the required effort to compete against the Chinese and the Whites. If they do that they will develop a successful attitude, they will get high positions and they will be great role models.

If that's how so many are, how are their children who have them as their family elders and role models going to shift against those influences and guidences in high percentages?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-08-2016, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2016 01:54 PM by epronovost.)
RE: Focusing on White
@Slowminded

If you aren't denying the existence of racial (or sexual) discrimination in plural, white dominated country (like New-Zealand), you cannot deny the notion of White privilege since its only a way to look at discrimination. If a group is discriminated this means that it faces challenges that others don't. The idea that a group doesn't have to face a challenge is called a privilege (that's what privilege means). White privilege is looking a discrimination from the point of view of someone who DOESN'T face it to see how it affect his perception (AKA from a White person in this case) of the world, impact his behavior and affect discrimination (racism in that case) in society at large. If you don't face discrimination you are privileged compared to someone who does. There is nothing else to it. Studies on White Privilege are made to better understand the mindset of a person who lives in a society with discrimination, but doesn't face it himself on systemic basis (a White Person in this case, hence the name and yes before you ask there is such a thing like Religious Privilege, Sexual Privilege, etc.).

I can't load your video for some reason (but I can read your link). I see three weakness in it. The first one, it mention only social psychology, not sociology, social anthropology, geography (especially urban geography), history and litterature. All these sciences (and three humanities) were essential in the development of our modern understanding of racism and other form of discrimination. The second weakness, it describes only a reduced diversity in political opinion, not an absence of it. The third one is the biggest. Even if there is a reduce variety of political position in social psychology, can you demonstrate that their findings are wrong? Maybe there is very little variation in social psychology scientists on the subject of discrimination by race and gender because these are two very well established social issues with deep impact on a person psychology and how it impact a society. Of course, since these issues are deemed unprofitable for a society we seek to eliminate it, because it poses a threat to the concept of meritocracy by reducing the quantity of people compeeting on a even ground which potentially robs us of great talents. If you don't have actual research that point to the opposite directly, you are simply poisoning the well by using a artificial political cleavage to attack their credibility. Furthermore, this research only target American scientists in social science. Yet, they aren't the only ones studying discrimination and a Democrate could be considered conservative in Canada or France. What is right wing or left wing is variable depending on where you stand.

There is a fourth point to be made here, but I don't consider it a valid one for obvious reason. It uses social psychology findings, theoretical models and researches to demonstrate that social psychology has a problem of Echo Chamber. The idea itself that there such a thing like an Echo Chamber as a psycho-social phenomenon was developped by social psychology and is used to explain things like discrimination all the time (the segragation argument is built around that). How do you know whats right and wrong then? What makes you say that Echo Chambers are a genuine psycho-social construct, but not Privileges? Both are supported by the same academia and in the case of Privilege, its an older conception (dating back to 1936) than Echo Chamber (which dates back from 1964).

In resume, its an interesting reading, it does cat a doubt on some findings (especialy in the more detailed arguments or when calculating the efficency of some programs, especially when those programs are supported by the scientist). I already knew of this article so did I with the recent findings on the reproductablity issues of psychological science (but this one had a very good retort in my opinion). Yet, I think its important to stress again the importance of providing actual proof or your opinion. You called multiple time bullshit on the concept of White Privilege (and by extension White Fragility), yet this article provides no explanation or proof that your opinion is correct. Mine do in pretty accurate and developped fashion. If you are dismissing them on the simple basis that sociology (the author isn't a psychologist) is dominated by Liberals (which is probably also the case in my opinion), you are doing exactly what your article is concern about: falling victim to group think and living in an Echo Chamber, a conservative one in your case. That you remain skeptical of some findings and studies, I can completly understand and agree with you, but if it as strong supports, good methodology and provides good sourcing, you should still trust it in my opinion.

PS: I did mentionned that I wasn't a big fan of Affirmative actions, but I am not a big fan of the cultural phenomenon of «Race Blindness» that you seem to be advocating either. Applied in the current social norms in a plural country, it would only hide racism and discrimination not elliminate it because most people, especially those who are raised to be «Race Blind», can't think complexly about racism and discrimination and prevent inconconcious bias to be exposed and questioned.

PPS: Thanks for the flowers BTW and I would like to mention again, that you are a very good sport in those conversation. Don't take my pointing out of «White Fragility» as a personal attack on your character. While reading the paper, I simple thought that the «triggers» were really the ones you were responding to.

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29-08-2016, 12:38 PM
RE: Focusing on White
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29-08-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 12:23 PM)epronovost Wrote:  @Slowminded

If you aren't denying the existence of racial (or sexual) discrimination in plural, white dominated country (like New-Zealand), you cannot deny the notion of White privilege since its only a way to look at discrimination. If a group is discriminated this means that it faces challenges that others don't. The idea that a group doesn't have to face a challenge is called a privilege (that's what privilege means). White privilege is looking a discrimination from the point of view of someone who DOESN'T face it to see how it affect his perception (AKA from a White person in this case) of the world, impact his behavior and affect discrimination (racism in that case) in society at large. If you don't face discrimination you are privileged compared to someone who does. There is nothing else to it. Studies on White Privilege are made to better understand the mindset of a person who lives in a society with discrimination, but doesn't face it himself on systemic basis (a White Person in this case, hence the name and yes before you ask there is such a thing like Religious Privilege, Sexual Privilege, etc.).

I can't load your video for some reason (but I can read your link). I see three weakness in it. The first one, it mention only social psychology, not sociology, social anthropology, geography (especially urban geography), history and litterature. All these sciences (and three humanities) were essential in the development of our modern understanding of racism and other form of discrimination. The second weakness, it describes only a reduced diversity in political opinion, not an absence of it. The third one is the biggest. Even if there is a reduce variety of political position in social psychology, can you demonstrate that their findings are wrong? Maybe there is very little variation in social psychology scientists on the subject of discrimination by race and gender because these are two very well established social issues with deep impact on a person psychology and how it impact a society. Of course, since these issues are deemed unprofitable for a society we seek to eliminate it, because it poses a threat to the concept of meritocracy by reducing the quantity of people compeeting on a even ground which potentially robs us of great talents. If you don't have actual research that point to the opposite directly, you are simply poisoning the well by using a artificial political cleavage to attack their credibility. Furthermore, this research only target American scientists in social science. Yet, they aren't the only ones studying discrimination and a Democrate could be considered conservative in Canada or France. What is right wing or left wing is variable depending on where you stand.

There is a fourth point to be made here, but I don't consider it a valid one for obvious reason. It uses social psychology findings, theoretical models and researches to demonstrate that social psychology has a problem of Echo Chamber. The idea itself that there such a thing like an Echo Chamber as a psycho-social phenomenon was developped by social psychology and is used to explain things like discrimination all the time (the segragation argument is built around that). How do you know whats right and wrong then? What makes you say that Echo Chambers are a genuine psycho-social construct, but not Privileges? Both are supported by the same academia and in the case of Privilege, its an older conception (dating back to 1936) than Echo Chamber (which dates back from 1964).

In resume, its an interesting reading, it does cat a doubt on some findings (especialy in the more detailed arguments or when calculating the efficency of some programs, especially when those programs are supported by the scientist). I already knew of this article so did I with the recent findings on the reproductablity issues of psychological science (but this one had a very good retort in my opinion). Yet, I think its important to stress again the importance of providing actual proof or your opinion. You called multiple time bullshit on the concept of White Privilege (and by extension White Fragility), yet this article provides no explanation or proof that your opinion is correct. Mine do in pretty accurate and developped fashion. If you are dismissing them on the simple basis that sociology (the author isn't a psychologist) is dominated by Liberals (which is probably also the case in my opinion), you are doing exactly what your article is concern about: falling victim to group think and living in an Echo Chamber, a conservative one in your case. That you remain skeptical of some findings and studies, I can completly understand and agree with you, but if it as strong supports, good methodology and provides good sourcing, you should still trust it in my opinion.

PS: I did mentionned that I wasn't a big fan of Affirmative actions, but I am not a big fan of the cultural phenomenon of «Race Blindness» that you seem to be advocating either. Applied in the current social norms in a plural country, it would only hide racism and discrimination not elliminate it because most people, especially those who are raised to be «Race Blind», can't think complexly about racism and discrimination and prevent inconconcious bias to be exposed and questioned.

PPS: Thanks for the flowers BTW and I would like to mention again, that you are a very good sport in those conversation. Don't take my pointing out of «White Fragility» as a personal attack on your character. While reading the paper, I simple thought that thre «triggers» were really the ones you were responding to.

I'll get back to you on this, I'm not abandoning the conversation but right now I can't bring myself to write or think about anything serious. First day at work after vacation Weeping . Hope you understand.

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29-08-2016, 01:58 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I am also impressed by e.g Chinese achievements in societies in which they are minorities. They obviously do a lot of things right. Often against great odds.
Against what odds? I don't know what odds you are talking about. The Chinese hold no grudges, they just get on with it. They are determined and work hard (in general) and invest time in their kids future (in general). They have the opportunity for our same schools, opportunity for our same libraries. They just get on with it. Rather than worrying about whether they are a minority or not.


(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Back to Maori. A thought exercise. A white New Zealander who is familiar with Maori behavior, from certain studies no less, meets a casually dressed Maori on the street. The Maori like Winston Peters is a high achiever, but this fact is unknown to the white observer.
Almost all NZers know of Winston Peters

(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It is not a stretch that this Maori will be seen, at least initially, in the same unflattering light as you have described them.
I was describing many of the Maori kids at my school, especially those in my class. I wasn't describing all Maori.

(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  There goes a dude that likely does not apply himself.
I don't judge people that I don't know.

(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Because people use generalizations for those that they don't know personally. As a result, the Maori gentleman enjoys a deficit of doubt.
You are making this shit up.
If I am hiring someone, and a CV comes in showing good grades, showing enthusiasm etc, well then I assume the person does apply themself, there is no deficit of doubt.

(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  People can and do perceive reactions and social cues. Even very subtle ones; homo sapiens has evolved to read such cues. Is it really so difficult to see that a Maori experiences society in a not normal way?
But, let's say there is a perception, a generalisation. Maori can turn this around by acheiving, then perhaps the group will be thought of like the Chinese as high acheivers, perhaps even better. It seems as a group they have made their own bed, but they can improve it by putting effort in, not by us creating racist policies to make it easier for less qualified Maori to get into positions and jobs they are unqualified for. That is setting them up to fail
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29-08-2016, 02:32 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(26-08-2016 03:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How come in this PC environment it is OK to focus on races other than the white race?

In NZ we have:
a Maori rugby team.
special Maori parliament seats.
articles about Maori perspective.

But racist if we focus on white?

What we don't have is:
A European/White rugby team
special parliament seats for whites only
articles about the White perspective.

That's like asking how come them don't have Chinese restaurants in China.

They have do have white parliament seats, white rugby teams, articles from the white perspective. They just call them parliament seats, rugby teams, and articles.

And generally when particular minority group have parliament seats reserved for them, it's to address under representation. To compensate for the over representation of the white populace in that area.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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