Focusing on White
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29-08-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 10:51 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  If that's how so many are, how are their children who have them as their family elders and role models going to shift against those influences and guidences in high percentages?
That’s a good question.

Culture is very hard to change. The cycle of parenting and upbringing is hard to change.

Australia tried to break the cycle with the stolen generation. But obviously taking kids away from their parents and putting them into foster care isn’t a path to success.

You can’t get too heavy handed on parents, as they are the parent, bringing up the children is their responsibility. You cannot legislate that parents must pay attention to their kids, must take interest in their learning, must invest in their future.

Govt can provide free public schooling (which they do), free child healthcare (which they do), Working and income support (which they do), free library (which they do), free family planning (which they do), free early child support (which they do).

I’m not sure what else the government can do, other than to provide opportunity and support.
I understand that we have private Maori organisation which can also support Maori parents, families etc.
The change must come within, we can’t have a predominately white government interfering too much, singling out Maori families and forcing extra restrictions or training on them. Maori need to use their initiative and grab control of their own destiny. It’s up to them really.
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29-08-2016, 04:35 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  I am also impressed by e.g Chinese achievements in societies in which they are minorities. They obviously do a lot of things right. Often against great odds.
Against what odds? I don't know what odds you are talking about. The Chinese hold no grudges, they just get on with it. They are determined and work hard (in general) and invest time in their kids future (in general). They have the opportunity for our same schools, opportunity for our same libraries. They just get on with it. Rather than worrying about whether they are a minority or not.

That foreigners face great odds in their countries of adoption is not(ought not to be) news. Doubly so if they arrive with little to nothing on their backs. Most Chinese don't even speak English.

(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Back to Maori. A thought exercise. A white New Zealander who is familiar with Maori behavior, from certain studies no less, meets a casually dressed Maori on the street. The Maori like Winston Peters is a high achiever, but this fact is unknown to the white observer.

Almost all NZers know of Winston Peters

You misunderstood me. I am not talking about Winston Peters. But rather a Maori that also applies himself but without the fame. Unless every Maori that applies himself is famous, I am thinking you might have characters like aforementioned in New Zealand - a Maori who has sorted himself out and is not famous.

(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  It is not a stretch that this Maori will be seen, at least initially, in the same unflattering light as you have described them.
I was describing many of the Maori kids at my school, especially those in my class. I wasn't describing all Maori.

Ok. I missed the qualifier. Perhaps it's reasonable to also rope in the families, who are in charge of the parenting of these Maori kids in your school. Do you NOT extrapolate beyond this small group otherwise?

(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  There goes a dude that likely does not apply himself.
I don't judge people that I don't know.

When you wrote this "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge." I assumed you don't know every Maori.

While I will grant that you have now qualified that statement, it is not an unusual thing for people to judge others purely on the basis of the groups they are perceived to belong to. Applied rationally, it actually has a survival value.

(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  Because people use generalizations for those that they don't know personally. As a result, the Maori gentleman enjoys a deficit of doubt.
You are making this shit up.

If I am hiring someone, and a CV comes in showing good grades, showing enthusiasm etc, well then I assume the person does apply themself, there is no deficit of doubt.

I make generalizations. I think most normal people do it. We see someone dressed in a certain fashion, we make certain prior assumptions - ideally subject to later validation or negation - but often just conclusively. It's the same with racial or ethnic backgrounds, if you are not impervious to society's influence. The problem? We don't always get the benefit of confirmation or negation of our views. The dude on the street is not handing you his CV.

(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 07:00 AM)tomilay Wrote:  People can and do perceive reactions and social cues. Even very subtle ones; homo sapiens has evolved to read such cues. Is it really so difficult to see that a Maori experiences society in a not normal way?
But, let's say there is a perception, a generalisation. Maori can turn this around by acheiving, then perhaps the group will be thought of like the Chinese as high acheivers, perhaps even better. It seems as a group they have made their own bed, but they can improve it by putting effort in, not by us creating racist policies to make it easier for less qualified Maori to get into positions and jobs they are unqualified for. That is setting them up to fail

I can't claim to know much about Maori. But if they are discriminated against, they are going to notice it. Even though I agree that people should tough it out and pursue alternative approaches, less focus on grievance, more focus on sorting out what they can control, etc etc...skirting around a problem and just toughing it doesn't mean there is no problem to be addressed.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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29-08-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 01:51 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I'll get back to you on this, I'm not abandoning the conversation but right now I can't bring myself to write or think about anything serious. First day at work after vacation Weeping . Hope you understand.

You have all my compassion. I had that feeling last week myself. The first morning is almost always a killer. I would like to continue the conversation of course. Looking foward to hear from you.

Freedom is servitude to justice and intellectual honesty.
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29-08-2016, 04:51 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 12:51 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-08-2016 10:49 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  [i]Social Justice Warrior. A pejorative term for an individual who...
Thanks for posting that. I too was wondering what SJW was.

Since the dating sites have codes and I fit into SWM as in single white male an there is DJF or divorced Jewish female, when I saw it I assumed it was Single Jewish white. When I was first presented with FWB I assumed it meant fat white broad!
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29-08-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(29-08-2016 04:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  That foreigners face great odds in their countries of adoption is not(ought not to be) news. Doubly so if they arrive with little to nothing on their backs. Most Chinese don't even speak English.
Yes, language can be a barrier. If you don't know English in NZ then will be tough to get many jobs. Also if you have tattoes all over your face it can be hard to get a job in hospitality.

(29-08-2016 04:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  You misunderstood me. I am not talking about Winston Peters. But rather a Maori that also applies himself but without the fame. Unless every Maori that applies himself is famous, I am thinking you might have characters like aforementioned in New Zealand - a Maori who has sorted himself out and is not famous.
OK, I generally don't pay much attention to strangers on the street. I certainly don't look them up and down and try to profile them. If I'mm on my way to the dairy, I don't take note of how many Maori I have walked past, what they are wearing, whether they are motivated, whether they put effort into their children. I generally stay focussed on going to the dairy and buying what it is that I want.
I'd say that my general interaction with strangers is low. I would notice if someone is wearing a leather jacket with a patch on, or if they have a coloured bandana on their head, I'd stay away from them. But generally I don't pay much attention to strangers.
(29-08-2016 04:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Ok. I missed the qualifier. Perhaps it's reasonable to also rope in the families, who are in charge of the parenting of these Maori kids in your school. Do you NOT extrapolate beyond this small group otherwise?
I have no idea what's really going on. I did notice when I went to school that the maoris in my class didn't pay attention and didn't get good grades. I just assumed those maori along with the other non maori who weren't getting good grades probably wouldn't be getting the jobs where you need a degree.
There was a very high percentage in my year at my school of Maori who didn't appear to apply themselves. When I got into the corporate professional world and didn't see many Maori I assumed it was because the Maori aren't getting the qualifications (rather than a bias due to the people doing the hiring).
Of course I could be wrong, but this is my perception based on my life experiences.
I wouldn't assume that and random Maori is a person that doesn't apply themselves, but in a number's game if you told me you put an advert out for a qualified accountant, I wouldn't be surprised if the job applications didn't include a proportional amount of Maori applying.
(29-08-2016 04:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-08-2016 01:58 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I don't judge people that I don't know.

When you wrote this "It seems the Maori just aren't playing by the rules. They arent getting themselves educated. It's not because non Maori have educational priviledge." I assumed you don't know every Maori.
I'm making guesses (as per my experience and percetion) as to why the Maori aren't proportionally represented in the highly skilled jobs. You assume white priviledge, I assume it's because they haven't been getting the qualifications necessary.
I've certainly not seen any white priviledge. I for one have not been given a leg up or special knowledge that has been kept secret from the Maori.

(29-08-2016 04:35 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I can't claim to know much about Maori. But if they are discriminated against, they are going to notice it. Even though I agree that people should tough it out and pursue alternative approaches, less focus on grievance, more focus on sorting out what they can control, etc etc...skirting around a problem and just toughing it doesn't mean there is no problem to be addressed.
It's about personal accountability rather than blaming the world. If you put the effort in, you can get an education and qualifications, if you have the qualifications you can get the good jobs. It doesn't matter what race you are. If we lower the qualification standards for a specific race, are we saying the this race is a dumb peoples and hence we need to lower the standard for them?
In my view if they are unqualified for the job but you give them the job anyway, then you are setting them up to fail.
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30-08-2016, 09:06 PM
RE: Focusing on White
(28-08-2016 03:05 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  
(28-08-2016 11:00 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Why don't you just read the PDF about White Fragility?
[snip]

Could it be possible that the media you are consuming make you feel under attack more often than not?

Quote:I've read it. Enough of it to be precise so I can make my judgment on it. And I find it to be bullshit, sorry.

The above comment of yours is likely invalidated by this later comment...

Quote:I live in all white country, there is probably not even a thousand black people in whole country so I don't have any other race to be privileged over anyway.

I'm suggesting that this fact alone—a lack of any conflict with blacks in your country—doesn't put you in any sort of position of practical judgment on the countries that do have major, and very demonstrative, black populations like the UK (~2 million) or the US (~42 million). In Australia we have around 700,000 blacks (as defined by the US benchmark).

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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