Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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02-01-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
So bold, so brave. I'll just go on being as precise and clear with myself as I can because that reflects my values.

I don't believe gods literally exist of course but it is clear they exist in the subjective lives of many believers as part of their experience. For those of us who do not experience gods in our subjective experience, of course they don't exist. Does that mean they don't exist for anyone else? We're in no position to know that.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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02-01-2017, 10:42 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 12:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I believe there is only one True God®.

Of course . You are talking about CHUCK NORRIS.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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03-01-2017, 02:18 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Hence the marca registrada.
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03-01-2017, 05:02 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?



#sigh
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26-01-2017, 12:01 PM
For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
What's the difference? God does not exist. But having a nonbeliever simply say "I don't believe gods exist" is just a way for a theist to keep the conversation going. It's semantic.


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27-01-2017, 08:00 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2017 09:07 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(26-01-2017 12:01 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  What's the difference? God does not exist. But having a nonbeliever simply say "I don't believe gods exist" is just a way for a theist to keep the conversation going. It's semantic.

Not at all, but I see that many people here can't see the difference.

Well, the difference is that believing there is no god is a faith-based stance as you can't possibly know if there is or there is not a god.

If you consider yourself to be intellectually honest, and you hold the belief for the negative (as most people voted) then you have to be ready to provide the evidence for the non-existence, otherwise you can't really call yourself a skeptic, as you have a faith-based stance.

There are infinite possible ways some kind of entity that would qualify for a god (not-personal) would exist, there are few ways a personal god would exist as well, especially easy to fit reality (as a possibility) if we are not talking about a benevolent entity, unless you can safely rule out all of those you can't say the belief that no gods exist is a rational belief.

While we do not have any evidence (and therefore reason to believe) any of those possible gods are true we still have to consistent and recognize we don't have evidence that implies that those gods are impossible to exist.

I voted No, as I do not hold the belief that there is no god(s), but I would add that I do hold the belief that Yahweh, in particular, does not exist in the way it is described in the Bible, but it is the only deity that I can make a solid case for its non-existence based on his "omni-attributes" and my knowledge about its mythology, other people who are more educated about the Quran could be able to do the same about Allah (or other mythologies that describe an entity extensively enough for someone to make a case for its non-existence based on logical conflicts on his description or evident incompatibility of that god's concept with reality)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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28-01-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 11:54 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  The one thing all atheists can agree on is that they do not hold a belief in anything they would call god. However, "I do not believe X" is not the same thing as "I believe NOT X". By example, "I do not believe a god(s) exists" is not the same as "I believe no god(s) exists". So I want to poll this distinction.
We should all know this, but keep in mind that "I believe" is not the same thing as "I know". For example, "I'm pretty sure that fairies don't exist, but I can't be certain of it" means "Yes, I believe fairies don't exist".
Last thing, you can use any definition of "god" that you think is relevant. Basically, just don't define "god" as "toaster".
If the question isn't clear, simply don't answer the poll. I'm looking for strict answers.

I do not believe a god exist. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying, "There is no god".

C'mon man over 2000 years and still zero evidence, preeeeeetty much proved that negative claim to me.
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28-01-2017, 01:40 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 01:09 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I do not believe a god exists. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying, "There is no god".

C'mon man over 2000 years and still zero evidence, preeeeeetty much proved that negative claim to me.
I understand the argument but it's a place I personally prefer not to go because it feeds into the very persistent theist stereotype of the arrogant, know-it-all atheist making an unsupportable knowledge claim.

Many fundamentalists think it's unsupportable because you'd have to claim to have been everywhere and everywhen and scoured the whole universe to be able to make that statement. That is where the charge of arrogance comes from. But this is usually driven by their deeply flawed argument that if you can't disprove a thing, you should believe it. But the far simpler and more honest reason is that invisible deities (which is basically all of them) are inherently unfalsifiable, therefore, no supportable knowledge claim for either their existence or non-existence can be honestly made.

What is entirely supportable however is that given there is not a shred of actual evidence or logical argument in favor of the existence of deities, there is no valid reason to afford belief to them.

So I keep it a belief position, not a knowledge position. The belief position is plenty adequate to explain why I am without belief in any deities. Your semantic shortcut would be perfectly acceptable in a world full of rational actors, but it just becomes a millstone around your neck in a world of people with no nuanced understanding of the philosophical points of the matter.
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28-01-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 01:40 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 01:09 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I do not believe a god exists. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying, "There is no god".

C'mon man over 2000 years and still zero evidence, preeeeeetty much proved that negative claim to me.
I understand the argument but it's a place I personally prefer not to go because it feeds into the very persistent theist stereotype of the arrogant, know-it-all atheist making an unsupportable knowledge claim.

Many fundamentalists think it's unsupportable because you'd have to claim to have been everywhere and everywhen and scoured the whole universe to be able to make that statement. That is where the charge of arrogance comes from. But this is usually driven by their deeply flawed argument that if you can't disprove a thing, you should believe it. But the far simpler and more honest reason is that invisible deities (which is basically all of them) are inherently unfalsifiable, therefore, no supportable knowledge claim for either their existence or non-existence can be honestly made.

What is entirely supportable however is that given there is not a shred of actual evidence or logical argument in favor of the existence of deities, there is no valid reason to afford belief to them.

So I keep it a belief position, not a knowledge position. The belief position is plenty adequate to explain why I am without belief in any deities. Your semantic shortcut would be perfectly acceptable in a world full of rational actors, but it just becomes a millstone around your neck in a world of people with no nuanced understanding of the philosophical points of the matter.

I'd use it as a teachable moment. This argument that we'd have to go all over the universe and look in every place before saying there is no god commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. It seeks to make use of logic while denying the conceptual level of cognition which logic depends on. What they are saying is that we are limited to our senses, we must physically look under every rock and behind every asteroid before we come to the conclusion that gods do not exist. But we don't have to do this because conceptual level cognition extends the reach of our knowledge beyond, far beyond, the perceptual level. I'd point out this flaw in their thinking.

I'd point out that we don't have to search the whole universe in order to know that there are no square circles out there somewhere hiding in some corner of the cosmos. We can know by means of reason that there aren't any. That's because the notion of a square circle is self contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory shapes. Similarly, the notion of a god is self- contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory metaphysical propositions, i.e. the primacy of consciousness and the primacy of existence which are mutually exclusive. I'd point out this fatal flaw to them.

I'd also point out to them, that like the skeptics, they have an irrational standard of knowledge. That is, if one is not omniscient then one can not claim any certainty. I'd point out to them their error in dropping the context that all knowledge is contextual and so then certainty must also be contextual. They are making a number of serious but very fixable errors in their thinking and I'd show them those errors and then ask them if they want to stick with their ill conceived argument.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-01-2017, 02:16 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 01:40 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 01:09 PM)xieulong Wrote:  I do not believe a god exists. I'm also perfectly comfortable saying, "There is no god".

C'mon man over 2000 years and still zero evidence, preeeeeetty much proved that negative claim to me.
I understand the argument but it's a place I personally prefer not to go because it feeds into the very persistent theist stereotype of the arrogant, know-it-all atheist making an unsupportable knowledge claim.

Many fundamentalists think it's unsupportable because you'd have to claim to have been everywhere and everywhen and scoured the whole universe to be able to make that statement. That is where the charge of arrogance comes from. But this is usually driven by their deeply flawed argument that if you can't disprove a thing, you should believe it. But the far simpler and more honest reason is that invisible deities (which is basically all of them) are inherently unfalsifiable, therefore, no supportable knowledge claim for either their existence or non-existence can be honestly made.

What is entirely supportable however is that given there is not a shred of actual evidence or logical argument in favor of the existence of deities, there is no valid reason to afford belief to them.

So I keep it a belief position, not a knowledge position. The belief position is plenty adequate to explain why I am without belief in any deities. Your semantic shortcut would be perfectly acceptable in a world full of rational actors, but it just becomes a millstone around your neck in a world of people with no nuanced understanding of the philosophical points of the matter.

I see your point. However, I do not give any gravity to what the fundamentalists think or feel. Their unsubstantiated claims are nonsense to begin with, at best silly and childish.

Yup, it is a shortcut, but it the same shortcut I use to dismiss the bigfoot/yeti, nessie, "dogs shooting bees out of their mouths" claims.
The god claim is far more extraordinary then others, it will require pretty damn extraordinary evidence. With no evidence forthcoming, I can dismiss it much easier then any other claims.
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