Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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28-01-2017, 03:23 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Interesting that only 3 people so far have voted for the non-faith based position.

This poll does a very good job of showing that there are perhaps very few skeptics on this forum.

For me, it seems hard to rule out the possibility of something we could call a god until we understand how universes come into existence.

Think about the big bang. I mean really think about it. Think about the moment right after the big bang when the entirety of our universe occupied less space than a single electron.

Believing that a universe just pops out of nothing with no cause at all seems almost as crazy as believing in a deistic prime mover. I only label these beliefs as crazy because this is WAY outside the limits of current human knowledge and understanding.

I take the "I don't know, lets just wait and see" stance.

Hard atheists (fundamentalists) are just as nutty as religious fundamentalists, in that they both take a faith based view of the world, and are unwilling to admit, both to themselves and others, that they simply don't know the answer to the god question.

Another way to put it is.....the cat is either alive or dead, but we don't know which until we open the box. We don't even know where the box is, let alone how to open it.
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28-01-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 02:05 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 01:40 PM)mordant Wrote:  I understand the argument but it's a place I personally prefer not to go because it feeds into the very persistent theist stereotype of the arrogant, know-it-all atheist making an unsupportable knowledge claim.

I'd point out that we don't have to search the whole universe in order to know that there are no square circles out there somewhere hiding in some corner of the cosmos. We can know by means of reason that there aren't any. That's because the notion of a square circle is self contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory shapes. Similarly, the notion of a god is self- contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory metaphysical propositions, i.e. the primacy of consciousness and the primacy of existence which are mutually exclusive. I'd point out this fatal flaw to them.

Yes, but not all things that would qualify as a god are necessarily self-contradictory, those who aren't could possibly exist.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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28-01-2017, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 28-01-2017 05:12 PM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 03:23 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Interesting that only 3 people so far have voted for the non-faith based position.

I take the "I don't know, lets just wait and see" stance.

Hard atheists (fundamentalists) are just as nutty as religious fundamentalists, in that they both take a faith based view of the world, and are unwilling to admit, both to themselves and others, that they simply don't know the answer to the god question.

Another way to put it is.....the cat is either alive or dead, but we don't know which until we open the box. We don't even know where the box is, let alone how to open it.

I believe that was Unknown666 intention, and yes it is indeed very interesting how many people are comfortable with the negative stance while disguising themselves as default stance to avoid the burden of proof and manage to feel intellectually honest all at the same time.

But I disagree that they are "just as nutty", because while we can't possibly know if there's no god, we still have tons of "absence of evidence where the positive would provide evidence" cases (that is, speaking of the conventional personal gods) that in itself could make a strong case for the non-existence beyond reasonable doubt of almost every god that matters.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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28-01-2017, 05:06 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 03:23 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Interesting that only 3 people so far have voted for the non-faith based position.

This poll does a very good job of showing that there are perhaps very few skeptics on this forum.

For me, it seems hard to rule out the possibility of something we could call a god until we understand how universes come into existence.

Think about the big bang. I mean really think about it. Think about the moment right after the big bang when the entirety of our universe occupied less space than a single electron.

Believing that a universe just pops out of nothing with no cause at all seems almost as crazy as believing in a deistic prime mover. I only label these beliefs as crazy because this is WAY outside the limits of current human knowledge and understanding.

I take the "I don't know, lets just wait and see" stance.

Hard atheists (fundamentalists) are just as nutty as religious fundamentalists, in that they both take a faith based view of the world, and are unwilling to admit, both to themselves and others, that they simply don't know the answer to the god question.

Another way to put it is.....the cat is either alive or dead, but we don't know which until we open the box. We don't even know where the box is, let alone how to open it.

Bullshit.
Your reflexive jump to a cat *at all*, is what is ridiculous.
It's just a bad (learned) reflexive habit.
The properties we know apply to this universe in general, we know break down at a singularity. Therefore "believing that a universe just pops out of nothing with no cause at all" is irrelevant and meaningless, and actually incorrect, in terms of physics. No one says it "pops out of nothing". Facepalm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-01-2017, 07:27 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(27-01-2017 08:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(26-01-2017 12:01 PM)treefireguy Wrote:  What's the difference? God does not exist. But having a nonbeliever simply say "I don't believe gods exist" is just a way for a theist to keep the conversation going. It's semantic.

Not at all, but I see that many people here can't see the difference.

Well, the difference is that believing there is no god is a faith-based stance as you can't possibly know if there is or there is not a god.

No, it isn't. Claiming there is no god, absent proof, might be considered faith-based. Or just illogical.

I don't know that there are no gods, but I believe there aren't. And that belief is well-founded and rational since there is no evidence of the existence of any gods.
That is not faith, it is reason.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-01-2017, 07:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(27-01-2017 08:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Not at all, but I see that many people here can't see the difference.

Well, the difference is that believing there is no god is a faith-based stance as you can't possibly know if there is or there is not a god.

That's the same as telling us we can't possibly know there are no pink sparkly unicorns.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-01-2017, 07:55 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 04:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 02:05 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'd point out that we don't have to search the whole universe in order to know that there are no square circles out there somewhere hiding in some corner of the cosmos. We can know by means of reason that there aren't any. That's because the notion of a square circle is self contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory shapes. Similarly, the notion of a god is self- contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory metaphysical propositions, i.e. the primacy of consciousness and the primacy of existence which are mutually exclusive. I'd point out this fatal flaw to them.

Yes, but not all things that would qualify as a god are necessarily self-contradictory, those who aren't could possibly exist.

If you are talking about some vague, poorly defined or undeclared God then why would anyone feel the need to even consider it and if there is no evidence other than someone's claim that such a thing is impossible, it must be rejected on the grounds that it is arbitrary. Remember it is the claim that a universe creating and altering god exists that is self contradictory, not a god because in order to be anything it would have to first exist. Theist's can not even make the claim that such a thing exists without contradicting themselves so there is no need or obligation to prove that such a thing does not exist. There's no obligation to prove that the non-existent doesn't exist.

And if you grant that the arbitrary is possible then you follow a very different and I think flawed theory of knowledge than I do.

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28-01-2017, 08:31 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 04:53 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(28-01-2017 02:05 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'd point out that we don't have to search the whole universe in order to know that there are no square circles out there somewhere hiding in some corner of the cosmos. We can know by means of reason that there aren't any. That's because the notion of a square circle is self contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory shapes. Similarly, the notion of a god is self- contradictory. It attempts to integrate two contradictory metaphysical propositions, i.e. the primacy of consciousness and the primacy of existence which are mutually exclusive. I'd point out this fatal flaw to them.

Yes, but not all things that would qualify as a god are necessarily self-contradictory, those who aren't could possibly exist.

By the way, can you point to any entity which would qualify as a god as the term is generally understood. By that I mean an entity possessing consciousness that can create,alter or maintain reality by an act of conscious will? Can you provide a single shred of evidence for such a thing. If you can I'd love to see it. if you can't then on what objective basis do you claim that such a thing is possible? Because to claim such a thing exist is to performatively contradict one's self. You would have to affirm the primacy of existence to do so but in the content of the claim you would deny the primacy of existence. This is the inescapable problem that theists face and why it commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. I need to do a post about this fallacy in the philosophy sub-forum. It is the key to understanding why we need not hold out for the possibility that gods exist.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-01-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 03:23 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Interesting that only 3 people so far have voted for the non-faith based position.

This poll does a very good job of showing that there are perhaps very few skeptics on this forum.

For me, it seems hard to rule out the possibility of something we could call a god until we understand how universes come into existence.

Think about the big bang. I mean really think about it. Think about the moment right after the big bang when the entirety of our universe occupied less space than a single electron.

Believing that a universe just pops out of nothing with no cause at all seems almost as crazy as believing in a deistic prime mover. I only label these beliefs as crazy because this is WAY outside the limits of current human knowledge and understanding.

I take the "I don't know, lets just wait and see" stance.

Hard atheists (fundamentalists) are just as nutty as religious fundamentalists, in that they both take a faith based view of the world, and are unwilling to admit, both to themselves and others, that they simply don't know the answer to the god question.

Another way to put it is.....the cat is either alive or dead, but we don't know which until we open the box. We don't even know where the box is, let alone how to open it.

Please point to any part of my worldview that is faith based?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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28-01-2017, 11:00 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 02:01 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(28-01-2017 07:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 08:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Not at all, but I see that many people here can't see the difference.

Well, the difference is that believing there is no god is a faith-based stance as you can't possibly know if there is or there is not a god.

That's the same as telling us we can't possibly know there are no pink sparkly unicorns.

Yes, Bucky it is exactly the same, but philosophically speaking we also don't know that there are no pink sparkly unicorns, if they don't conflict with logic by being "round squares" then they are possible, and actively believing they do not exist is irrational.

And Chas, you are wrong there mate, the belief is faith based in itself, there's no sense that a belief will only be faith-based once you speak it to others. If it would be faith-based if you claim it, then it is a faith based belief. Is actually simpler than that, we can't genuinely tell if there's no god, at all. Some specific god(s)? Sure, but any and all (even not comprehensible) god concepts? No way.

How can the belief that some infinite and vague category of things that we cannot access all do not exist, without even knowing (and being able to know) what exactly are those things can be a rational belief?

As far as we know even some kind of ridiculously advanced alien could be the starting agent for the life on earth and fit the requirements to be considered a god by almost all of humanity. Have we any reason to believe that is the case? No. But have we any evidence to rule out this possibility? No, so no reason to afford the belief it is not.

EDIT: I felt the need to elaborate this.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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