Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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29-01-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:13 AM)mordant Wrote:  Yes, I understand. But I must say, the distinction, while real enough philosophically, has precious little practical meaning because there is no way for new information to arise to enable belief to be afforded. The simple reason: supernatural beings and realms are inherently unfalsifiable, so as posited, there is inherently no way for anyone to EVER make a knowledge claim of ANY kind about them. That is exactly why Huxley originally defined agnosticism as the claim that god not just isn't currently known, but CAN'T be known.

Now if theists want to propose a god that's part of the natural order, and who therefore has at least the potential to be observed and assessed, that's a horse of a somewhat different color. Such a god or demigod or superior being could potentially be proven. But it's a different question from an invisible supernatural god (whether or not interventionist / personal).
Yes, still different.

As theists will try to poke holes in you rhetoric you might need to understand all this and have a "solid philosophical stance" in order to refute the arguments, there are philosophically literate theists who will exploit this if you don't.

It's also important if you find it to be important, like myself (and apparently Matt and Unknown666) find important to keep your beliefs and the reasons for them in check in order to exercise skepticism in all honesty.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 10:37 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If one is going to REDEFINE the word "god" to "anything-we-discover-in-the-future-which-may-have-a-causal-effect-on-this-universe", and then say that one is confident new information will come in, and then say that information MUST be labeled "god", then the purpose of the thread is destroyed.

The word "god" carries with it an actual learned meaning TODAY, in light of it's past and current popular use. I'm sure the historical (specific) meaning was what the poll was about.

The category "god" should be jettisoned from our vocabulary.
Catholics say "god is love".
The term carries no useful value, in 2016.

I assure you that's not my intent, I'm confident that's not the case.

All I'm saying is to help people understand better the "belief in no X is faith based" problem.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 10:45 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 01:52 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  I do not believe that any of the theistic gods ever posited by any religion exists.

When it comes to a deistic god, I disbelieve that god exists.

What's the difference between I do not believe X, and I disbelieve X?

I'm also curious as to whether most atheists here carve out a distinct space for deism.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2017, 10:54 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 11:01 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:09 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Nope; my lack of belief in the existence of supernatural entities and/or paranormal phenomena has nothing at all to do with "faith". Your use of the word is in the religious sense (belief without evidence), whereas mine is in the scientific sense (justified belief). Also, science and religion do not share any common epistemological status.

Lack of belief has nothing to do with everything I'm saying, I'm talking the 20+ people who voted "Yes" to the poll, meaning they not only lack the belief in god existence but actually hold the belief for its non-existence.

My point is that this belief is a faith-based belief due to the vague, and all-encompassing, and most importantly unfalsifiable nature of the concept of "god".

(28-01-2017 11:28 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Sorry, but this "infinite number of things could be a god" line of thinking is nonsensical. You also don't seem to understand that the entire notion of gods is man-made. [see my signature LOL]

I concede that people who voted for "Yes" were probably referring (as bucky pointed out) to the usual god, that would be the personal gods like Yahweh and Allah.

But disagreeing with Bucky, I don't think that was the intent of the poll at all, from what I read from unknown posts I think the intent was (as Matt pointed out), test skepticism in us, see how many people believe "no X", a faith-based stance, and how many people actually know that skepticism teaches us to remain in the default stance until evidence is presented, and that stance would be rejection of "theism" and "anti-theism" until evidence is presented for any of those claims.

I also concede to mordant point that these philosophical intricacies do not entertain everyone, and those who are not familiar with all this will likely click "Yes" meaning Yahweh... which defeats the purpose of the poll (if i'm right about the original purpose).

In any case, I tried to help people understand that why believing in "not X" is a faith-based stance, so they could reflect if that's really their stance.

I'm happy that at least mordant conceded that had he thought more on before choosing he would have chosen otherwise or not at all.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 10:56 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 09:17 AM)Velvet Wrote:  One can have the rational belief that Allah, Yahweh or any specific god, perhaps even "all personal gods" do not exist, and try to make a case for the non-existence supporting it with absence of evidence in certain circumstances where evidence would be present in case of the existence, or, if accepted, using logical arguments that imply that such a being is impossible.

But one cannot afford belief that "no god does exist", simply, because then you would be speaking about infinite things at the same time, those things all unknown and some unknowable in nature, some yet unconceived by human imagination.

So it wouldn't be a faith position if it was directed towards personal God, just all God/sin general?

I would think the matter of whether it's a faith position or not, according to your definition, would depend on what the person who say "I don't believe any God exists, means by the term "God". Which I would take as any commonly defined conception of God, whether that be deistic, pantheistic, theistic, etc... Or any sort of intentional agent/s that created our universe, etc....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2017, 10:59 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 11:34 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:45 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(11-10-2016 01:52 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  I do not believe that any of the theistic gods ever posited by any religion exists.

When it comes to a deistic god, I disbelieve that god exists.

What's the difference between I do not believe X, and I disbelieve X?

I'm also curious as to whether most atheists here carve out a distinct space for deism.

There's no difference, "disbelieving X" and not "believing X" are the same thing, the difference would be "believing not X".

I don't know about most atheists, I think deism is reasonable but multiplies an unnecessary entity to achieve the same result as atheism, so by Occam's razor atheism would be a less unnecessarily convoluted alternative and should be chosen between those 2 hypothesis.

At least that's why I dismiss Deism.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 11:08 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 11:18 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:56 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So it wouldn't be a faith position if it was directed towards personal God, just all God/sin general?

I would think the matter of whether it's a faith position or not, according to your definition, would depend on what the person who say "I don't believe any God exists, means by the term "God". Which I would take as any commonly defined conception of God, whether that be deistic, pantheistic, theistic, etc... Or any sort of intentional agent/s that created our universe, etc....

One can hold the rational justified belief for the non-existence of one (or more) gods if they can make a case for its non-existence, based on evidence for its non-existence, and that could arguably be done for the "usual personal gods".

This evidence could be 1. absence of evidence where can be safely assumed that the positive would provide evidence for the positive; 2. evidence for its impossibility and; 3. other accepted ways of substantiating a negative unfalsifiable claim that I don't know of.

In that case, it would not be a faith-based belief as it would be supported by evidence of the non-existence.

What makes it a faith-based stance in the case of "any/all gods" is affording a belief about an all-encompassing, unknown, and not even properly defined concept.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 11:28 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:59 AM)Velvet Wrote:  I don't know about most atheists, I think deism is reasonable but multiplies an unnecessary entity to achieve the same result as atheism, so by Occam's razor atheism would less unnecessarily convoluted and should be chosen between those 2 hypothesis.

At least that's why I dismiss Deism.

I take issue with atheist who attempt to level deism and atheism as a sort of next of kin. As as christian theists myself, even I were to abandon all my religious belief, I'd be a deist long before I'd be a atheist, in fact the gulf i'd have to cross from deism to atheism, which be an expansive one. I can conceive of a line from my theism to deism, but from deism to atheism.

In fact to me to be an atheist, in the sense of believing there's no intentionality involved ( a belief that God does not exists), seem to raise more question than it answers, a violation of occurs razors.

But I do admit that I can some relationship between a deistic position, and atheism, that's merely a lack of belief. The relationship between the two would be like having a dead beat father. Whose relationship to us is non-existent, that there's no real reason to waste our thoughts on him. The reason why I think I and other might be persuaded to atheism here, is not necessarily because I don't believe in such a God, but out a lack of interest in him or the question of his existence.

The difference between this and the atheism I described earlier, would be the difference between having a dead beat dad, and suggesting we have no biological father whatsoever. Which would be a significant gulf.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-01-2017, 12:02 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 11:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 10:59 AM)Velvet Wrote:  I don't know about most atheists, I think deism is reasonable but multiplies an unnecessary entity to achieve the same result as atheism, so by Occam's razor atheism would less unnecessarily convoluted and should be chosen between those 2 hypothesis.

At least that's why I dismiss Deism.

I take issue with atheist who attempt to level deism and atheism as a sort of next of kin. As as christian theists myself, even I were to abandon all my religious belief, I'd be a deist long before I'd be a atheist, in fact the gulf i'd have to cross from deism to atheism, which be an expansive one. I can conceive of a line from my theism to deism, but from deism to atheism.

In fact to me to be an atheist, in the sense of believing there's no intentionality involved ( a belief that God does not exists), seem to raise more question than it answers, a violation of occurs razors.

But I do admit that I can some relationship between a deistic position, and atheism, that's merely a lack of belief. The relationship between the two would be like having a dead beat father. Whose relationship to us is non-existent, that there's no real reason to waste our thoughts on him. The reason why I think I and other might be persuaded to atheism here, is not necessarily because I don't believe in such a God, but out a lack of interest in him or the question of his existence.

The difference between this and the atheism I described earlier, would be the difference between having a dead beat dad, and suggesting we have no biological father whatsoever. Which would be a significant gulf.

I was making a response, but I think I will not adress that for now.

I did what I thought I could in order to make people reflect about the "I believe not X" problem, my short debate with Bucky and Mordant was likely enough for someone to understand or at least look for more info on that for themselves if they feel the need to reevaluate some belief.

That said, no reason for the thread to derail and all that is lost, I hope you understand that, we can talk about Deism under skeptical perspective on other thread, we will surely have opportunity for that.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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29-01-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 12:02 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 11:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I take issue with atheist who attempt to level deism and atheism as a sort of next of kin. As as christian theists myself, even I were to abandon all my religious belief, I'd be a deist long before I'd be a atheist, in fact the gulf i'd have to cross from deism to atheism, which be an expansive one. I can conceive of a line from my theism to deism, but from deism to atheism.

In fact to me to be an atheist, in the sense of believing there's no intentionality involved ( a belief that God does not exists), seem to raise more question than it answers, a violation of occurs razors.

But I do admit that I can some relationship between a deistic position, and atheism, that's merely a lack of belief. The relationship between the two would be like having a dead beat father. Whose relationship to us is non-existent, that there's no real reason to waste our thoughts on him. The reason why I think I and other might be persuaded to atheism here, is not necessarily because I don't believe in such a God, but out a lack of interest in him or the question of his existence.

The difference between this and the atheism I described earlier, would be the difference between having a dead beat dad, and suggesting we have no biological father whatsoever. Which would be a significant gulf.

I was making a response, but I think I will not adress that for now.

I did what I thought I could in order to make people reflect about the "I believe not X" problem, my short debate with Bucky and Mordant was likely enough for someone to understand or at least look for more info on that for themselves if they feel the need to reevaluate some belief.

That said, no reason for the thread to derail and all that is lost, I hope you understand that, we can talk about Deism under skeptical perspective on other thread, we will surely have opportunity for that.

Understood.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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