Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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29-01-2017, 01:22 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:18 AM)Velvet Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 09:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  So you're claiming that we need empirical evidence to confirm our assertion that gods do not exist? This is logically untenable. Would you care to provide evidence proving that leprechauns don't exist?
... ... ... I thought not.


Have I made any assertion on leprechauns non-existence? I thought not.

I understand that.. duh. I was asking you to prove here and now that they don't exist. And you've chosen not to. As I suspected, you can't. QED.

(29-01-2017 10:18 AM)Velvet Wrote:  We actually have evidence for the non-existence of telekinesis, mermaids, talking animals, levitation, acupuncture and astrology, we tested the brain and searched those things and we have enough surveillance coverage of earth surface to detect those "not magical mythical animals" if they existed.

No, we don't have any evidence that those things don't exist. Can you cite references to support your claim of their non-existence? And can you clarify what you mean by we "tested the brain"?

(29-01-2017 10:18 AM)Velvet Wrote:  We don't have evidence for the non-existence of leprechauns, ghosts and angels because they are unfalsifiable (due to their magical bullshit nature), and no, I don't afford belief that they do not exist, but I dismiss the claims for their existence because I was not convinced due to lack of evidence.

So now you're somehow differentiating between leprechauns and mermaids? Can you elaborate on this point. (I'm guessing you don't know exactly what "unfalsifiable" means?)

Parthenogenesis exists and we have data to support it in scorpions, lizards, snails, etc and evidence suggests it is not impossible to happen in humans.

Just to clarify the issue of parthenogenesis, or so-called "virgin birth", there has never been any empirical evidence that would suggest that it can or could happen spontaneously with a human female—without laboratory intervention. As it currently stands, no isolated human ovum has ever been known to self-fertilise, despite intense IVF research.

(29-01-2017 10:18 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Why should any assertion need no evidence?

It's not the assertion that needs the "non-evidence"; it's the actuality.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-01-2017, 01:31 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 10:54 AM)Velvet Wrote:  My point is that this belief is a faith-based belief due to the vague, and all-encompassing, and most importantly unfalsifiable nature of the concept of "god".....

.....In any case, I tried to help people understand that why believing in "not X" is a faith-based stance, so they could reflect if that's really their stance.

You just don't get it do you? The notion of a "God" and/or "gods" is nothing more than an ancient and ignorant human construct, fabricated thousands of years ago—and well before the scientific revolution. In an enlightened 21st century this notion has zero relevance, and should be discarded ASAP.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-01-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Just going to leave this here....



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29-01-2017, 01:57 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 02:05 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(27-01-2017 08:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  If you consider yourself to be intellectually honest, and you hold the belief for the negative (as most people voted) then you have to be ready to provide the evidence for the non-existence, otherwise you can't really call yourself a skeptic, as you have a faith-based stance.

If what you are saying is that to be intellectually honest you have to accept that reality itself is fundamentally faith-based as it defies all attempts at direct observation (and may in fact be proven to fundamentally not admit direct observaton) then sure. That's curious but of no more practical use than God. (But I'm not at all sure that's your main point, my bad if I'm off the mark.)

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-01-2017, 02:25 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 01:44 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  Just going to leave this here....



That Video is useful for both Atheists & Theists.
Not all Atheists are the same with regards to how they view the different concepts of God.
Too many times we get classed all in the same boat & wind up debating a Theist that totally misunderstands our perspective.
I'll remember to use this video whenever that happens.
Thanks man.
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29-01-2017, 02:34 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 02:53 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 01:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 08:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  If you consider yourself to be intellectually honest, and you hold the belief for the negative (as most people voted) then you have to be ready to provide the evidence for the non-existence, otherwise you can't really call yourself a skeptic, as you have a faith-based stance.

If what you are saying is that to be intellectually honest you have to accept that reality itself is fundamentally faith-based as it defies all attempts at direct observation (and may in fact be proven to fundamentally not admit direct observaton) then sure. That's curious but of no more practical use than God. (But I'm not at all sure that's your main point, my bad if I'm off the mark.)
Girly
Just to clarify: Do you mean "all of reality cannot be directly observed?"
Sorry if I'm a bit slow.
.........

Therefore we cannot prove that God doesn't exist just as much as we can prove it's existence. Makes sense.
.........

Velvet:
This poll does not apply to Agnosticism but it is addressing the Atheist community only.
Agnosticism is a part of Atheism. I being an Agnostic Atheist am unable to participate in this poll even though it is addressed to all Atheists.
So my question to you Velvet is:
Why do I "have to be ready to defend a faith based stance" when I have no belief in either of the two choices presented?
I "have to" defend someone else's stance? Is this what you are saying?
That's like me saying if you are a Theist then you have to defend the existence of Zeus.
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29-01-2017, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 03:00 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 02:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 01:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  If what you are saying is that to be intellectually honest you have to accept that reality itself is fundamentally faith-based as it defies all attempts at direct observation (and may in fact be proven to fundamentally not admit direct observaton) then sure. That's curious but of no more practical use than God. (But I'm not at all sure that's your main point, my bad if I'm off the mark.)
Just to clarify: Do you mean "all of reality cannot be directly observed?"
Sorry if I'm a bit slow.

The best way I can think to phrase it is that reality fundamentally does not admit direct observation. I got no clue if it holds, that's for the fuzzycysts, I'm just saying that's the best way I can think to phrase that thought. My extremely unsophisticated and unsatisfying read on the line of thought is that direct observation demands no bias, all measurement introduces bias intrinsic to the measurement device, all observation requires measurement (in the interpretive not laboratory sense), so reality can only be observed indirectly. At least that's my recollection of the gist of it. As I mentioned, it seems a bit of a "so what?"

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-01-2017, 03:34 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 02:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 02:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Just to clarify: Do you mean "all of reality cannot be directly observed?"
Sorry if I'm a bit slow.

The best way I can think to phrase it is that reality fundamentally does not admit direct observation. I got no clue if it holds, that's for the fuzzycysts, I'm just saying that's the best way I can think to phrase that thought. My extremely unsophisticated and unsatisfying read on the line of thought is that direct observation demands no bias, all measurement introduces bias intrinsic to the measurement device, all observation requires measurement (in the interpretive not laboratory sense), so reality can only be observed indirectly. At least that's my recollection of the gist of it. As I mentioned, it seems a bit of a "so what?"
What if we say "All interpretations of objective reality are subjective. So what?"
This gives rise to a Solipsistic world view.

"Knowing something" is an impossible reality.
The best way I can explain this is to say:
"If an Omniscient Being did exist it can never KNOW it is omniscient. It can only Believe"

There is so much more I can say on this subject but it will require another thread.
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29-01-2017, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2017 04:06 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 03:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  "If an Omniscient Being did exist it can never KNOW it is omniscient. It can only Believe"

Yes, something like that. Campbell phrased it "God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."

(29-01-2017 03:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  There is so much more I can say on this subject but it will require another thread.

We could always take it here. Big Grin

(29-01-2017 03:34 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What if we say "All interpretations of objective reality are subjective. So what?"
This gives rise to a Solipsistic world view.

Yes, so what? But it doesn't really give rise to solipsism so much as take it to its logical conclusion by being skeptical of the idea of existence itself. Even solipsism is fundamentally baseless and without foundation. So what? Still gotta wake up and make the donuts. ... Shit I'm missing the NHL All-Star game.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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29-01-2017, 03:52 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(29-01-2017 11:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The difference between this and the atheism I described earlier, would be the difference between having a dead beat dad, and suggesting we have no biological father whatsoever. Which would be a significant gulf.
So you are appealing to us to at least believe in a deadbeat dad, just not to disbelieve in dad at all.

But there is no practical difference between a truly absent father, a truly indifferent father, and a dead or never-existing father. All of them "behave" the same toward the "child". The "child" gets the same attention, the same support, the same instruction, the same affection, the same communication from all three. I can't see any way to determine that a god exists in ANY of these three cases. I certainly can't see a god that matters in any of them.

So to my mind, a deist is simply a person who can't bring themselves to the logical conclusion that god is never going to put in an appearance, and what the most likely explanation for that is.

As to the kinship between deists / liberal Christians and atheists, it is mostly down to our agreement that the scriptures are not inerrant or to be taken in a primarily literal fashion, our agreement that proselytization is misguided, impertinent and disrespectful, and agreement that fundamentalism is toxic and harmful to society. As well as that we have a lot of common ground because we recognize each other as fellow human beings, with similar humanist impulses.
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