Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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30-01-2017, 08:55 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 08:50 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  People have a variety of reasons for picking what statement they use to express their opinions on god beliefs. I get tired of the semantics argument around it though with theists because most of the time I engage with them over this, they take any and every statement and contort it into a straw man anyways. It is (to them) always about atheists having a "distaste" for a god or that we "hate god" or some other such drivel. At some point, it isn't worth it to try and explain the nuances to them.

It typically goes something like this:
A: "I lack a belief in a god because of the lack of evidence to support the god claim."

T: "So you just hate god then and have a religious belief that he doesn't exist."

A: *sigh* "I don't believe in your god. That's it. That's all."

T: "What happened in your life to make you so angry with god?"

A: "He didn't exist..."
I hear you. And yet it is important to me to be clear on my real reasons exactly SO THAT I can hold my own in such "discussions". Theists constantly gaslight me like you describe above, and in order to maintain my own sanity in the face of that, I need to be very clear exactly what the nature of my epistemological positions, and the justifications of them, are.

It is also important to maintain an even keel emotionally and not be caught up in needing to be "right" or to justify myself to others. Perhaps this is an artifact of me coming out of Christian fundamentalism, which elevates BEING right over DOING right every damn time.
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30-01-2017, 09:01 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 08:55 AM)mordant Wrote:  I hear you. And yet it is important to me to be clear on my real reasons exactly SO THAT I can hold my own in such "discussions". Theists constantly gaslight me like you describe above, and in order to maintain my own sanity in the face of that, I need to be very clear exactly what the nature of my epistemological positions, and the justifications of them, are.

It is also important to maintain an even keel emotionally and not be caught up in needing to be "right" or to justify myself to others. Perhaps this is an artifact of me coming out of Christian fundamentalism, which elevates BEING right over DOING right every damn time.

I too enjoy trying to keep myself in check, ensuring I'm being as unbiased as I can, and with that comes a need for a solid epistemological stance.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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30-01-2017, 11:16 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 09:01 AM)Velvet Wrote:  ... and with that comes a need for a solid epistemological stance.

Let me know when you find one. I want one too.

#sigh
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30-01-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 08:22 AM)mordant Wrote:  I didn't say you were demanding that we believe in a deadbeat dad, not was it an accusation I made. It was a simple statement of fact. You said it's better in your view to believe in a deadbeat dad, than in no dad at all. This is making an appeal for the benefits of one belief over another. I do not think I mischaracterized it at all.

What you and others often have a habit of doing is changing the point of reference. I say I personally don’t find x believable, is interpreted to mean you ought not to find x believable. I never used the term “better”, or made some suggestion on how you or anyone here should personally operate. I just described my position, and how a position appears to me.

What you and pretty much any other stranger on the internet believes is of no real consequence to me, so I lack a need to try and instruct you on what you should personally believe here. When I point out that I don’t find your particular position believable, or even quite unbelievable, you should keep this in mind, that I’m not being prescriptive.

The mischaracterization is the repeated attempts on your part to frame it in such away, such as using the term “better”, or previously suggesting that i was “appealing to you to believe in a deadbeat dad.

Quote:What is so unthinkably horrible about realizing that you are not the product of intentionality?

I don’t think anything is horrible about it, I just don’t find it very believable. Just like I don’t find anything horrible about believing the earth is flat, I just don’t find it very believable.

Quote:It doesn't change one whit what it is like to be you or I, it does not change how we derive meaning or purpose.

It changes a lot of things, particularly in regards to positions and views that are grounded in a teleological view, such as most people (non-atheist in particular) moral views, conception of good, the way they ought to be etc… It’s the difference between seeing one sense of meaning as a temporary fixation, and an eternal commitment. It’s difference between seeking a meaning we ought to find, and seeing one’s lack of current meaning, as indicating it does not exist.

I’d have to see a variety of things, morality, truth, meaning, etc.. in a drastically different light, absent of intentionality, or in this case teleology. In fact thinking of them in non-intentional, non-teleological way, is part of the reason why I find it unbelievable. I’d have to literally lie to myself to be an atheist. Believe it because I want there to be no intentionality, not because I honesty find it true.

(again I’m speaking from my perspective nor yours)

Quote:However it is a simple fact that atheists and liberal Christians do in fact most often have quite a bit of practical views in common, and in fact, the views I gave examples of are rather apolitical, with the arguable exception of humanism (and note, I did not say "secular humanism”).

The simple fact here, is that liberals of any stripe have quite a few views in common, whether atheists, jew, buddhist, christian, etc… That commonality is implied by the term “liberal”, not atheism, or judaism, or christianity. The same can be said of libertarians, conservatives, etc…


Quote:I wonder why you are so averse to my observations and so invested in describing a "gulf" between, say, deism and atheism?

As i said, I personally can see a line from any particular form of theism to deism, why deism might be believable. But not between atheism and deism, that would require a huge leap for me personally, from whats plausible, to the seemingly absurd, an absurdity articulated in a perception of everything as a puddle, the seemingly intentional, as pareidolia, and illusions.

You personally might not see this gulf, in fact you frame the similarity quite differently, in fact unrelated to either atheism, or deism, and as a result beside the point.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-01-2017, 10:33 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 04:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 08:22 AM)mordant Wrote:  I didn't say you were demanding that we believe in a deadbeat dad, not was it an accusation I made. It was a simple statement of fact. You said it's better in your view to believe in a deadbeat dad, than in no dad at all. This is making an appeal for the benefits of one belief over another. I do not think I mischaracterized it at all.

What you and others often have a habit of doing is changing the point of reference. I say I personally don’t find x believable, is interpreted to mean you ought not to find x believable. I never used the term “better”, or made some suggestion on how you or anyone here should personally operate. I just described my position, and how a position appears to me.
Oh, come now. You're arguing the merits of a position. I don't take it personally, or feel a need to defend against it. I am just interested in engaging with it.

If you don't find x believable, and you bother to say so, and your one and only reason for bothering is to convey information to me and then I am not supposed to debate it unless I want to be accused of "changing the point of reference", then, frankly, keep your yap shut. But if you want to have a discussion on the merits, I'm here for ya.
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31-01-2017, 09:12 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 10:33 PM)mordant Wrote:  If you don't find x believable, and you bother to say so, and your one and only reason for bothering is to convey information to me and then I am not supposed to debate it unless I want to be accused of "changing the point of reference", then, frankly, keep your yap shut. But if you want to have a discussion on the merits, I'm here for ya.

You can disagree with it, argue you if you like, but stick to the point of reference.

Your argument would have to be "why I should find x believable". If I'm not buying it, then the argument would require you selling it, and not attempting to switch the roles here, by inferring that I'm selling it to you.

If you don't want to do that, then you have no real basis to criticize "why I find X unbelievable", because you're unwilling to substantiate why I should.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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31-01-2017, 09:19 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 11:54 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  The one thing all atheists can agree on is that they do not hold a belief in anything they would call god. However, "I do not believe X" is not the same thing as "I believe NOT X". By example, "I do not believe a god(s) exists" is not the same as "I believe no god(s) exists". So I want to poll this distinction.
We should all know this, but keep in mind that "I believe" is not the same thing as "I know". For example, "I'm pretty sure that fairies don't exist, but I can't be certain of it" means "Yes, I believe fairies don't exist".
Last thing, you can use any definition of "god" that you think is relevant. Basically, just don't define "god" as "toaster".
If the question isn't clear, simply don't answer the poll. I'm looking for strict answers.

I neither believe nor disbelieve. I just simply don't give a fuck. Complete indifference.

Drinking Beverage
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31-01-2017, 09:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
I lack a belief in gods either way.
I actually don't even know what one is, is there a clear falsifiable definition of what a god is?
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31-01-2017, 10:02 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(30-01-2017 04:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 08:22 AM)mordant Wrote:  I didn't say you were demanding that we believe in a deadbeat dad, not was it an accusation I made. It was a simple statement of fact. You said it's better in your view to believe in a deadbeat dad, than in no dad at all. This is making an appeal for the benefits of one belief over another. I do not think I mischaracterized it at all.

What you and others often have a habit of doing is changing the point of reference. I say I personally don’t find x believable, is interpreted to mean you ought not to find x believable. I never used the term “better”, or made some suggestion on how you or anyone here should personally operate. I just described my position, and how a position appears to me.

What you and pretty much any other stranger on the internet believes is of no real consequence to me, so I lack a need to try and instruct you on what you should personally believe here. When I point out that I don’t find your particular position believable, or even quite unbelievable, you should keep this in mind, that I’m not being prescriptive.

The mischaracterization is the repeated attempts on your part to frame it in such away, such as using the term “better”, or previously suggesting that i was “appealing to you to believe in a deadbeat dad.

Quote:What is so unthinkably horrible about realizing that you are not the product of intentionality?

I don’t think anything is horrible about it, I just don’t find it very believable. Just like I don’t find anything horrible about believing the earth is flat, I just don’t find it very believable.

Quote:It doesn't change one whit what it is like to be you or I, it does not change how we derive meaning or purpose.

It changes a lot of things, particularly in regards to positions and views that are grounded in a teleological view, such as most people (non-atheist in particular) moral views, conception of good, the way they ought to be etc… It’s the difference between seeing one sense of meaning as a temporary fixation, and an eternal commitment. It’s difference between seeking a meaning we ought to find, and seeing one’s lack of current meaning, as indicating it does not exist.

I’d have to see a variety of things, morality, truth, meaning, etc.. in a drastically different light, absent of intentionality, or in this case teleology. In fact thinking of them in non-intentional, non-teleological way, is part of the reason why I find it unbelievable. I’d have to literally lie to myself to be an atheist. Believe it because I want there to be no intentionality, not because I honesty find it true.

(again I’m speaking from my perspective nor yours)

Quote:However it is a simple fact that atheists and liberal Christians do in fact most often have quite a bit of practical views in common, and in fact, the views I gave examples of are rather apolitical, with the arguable exception of humanism (and note, I did not say "secular humanism”).

The simple fact here, is that liberals of any stripe have quite a few views in common, whether atheists, jew, buddhist, christian, etc… That commonality is implied by the term “liberal”, not atheism, or judaism, or christianity. The same can be said of libertarians, conservatives, etc…


Quote:I wonder why you are so averse to my observations and so invested in describing a "gulf" between, say, deism and atheism?

As i said, I personally can see a line from any particular form of theism to deism, why deism might be believable. But not between atheism and deism, that would require a huge leap for me personally, from whats plausible, to the seemingly absurd, an absurdity articulated in a perception of everything as a puddle, the seemingly intentional, as pareidolia, and illusions.

You personally might not see this gulf, in fact you frame the similarity quite differently, in fact unrelated to either atheism, or deism, and as a result beside the point.


Your entire schtick is that gulf...accentuating it, magnifying it, and using it to do your *you vs atheists* bullshit.

You are unable to articulate anything about "intentionality".
It's simply irrational bias.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-02-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
No gods exist. If they existed we wouldn't have to ask the question.

Until they do exist and/or it's been verified by more than just 'belief of existence' then the answer is no due to lack of evidence. Nothing to see here we should all move on.

"I don't know if Gods exist or not" would be accurate if some verifiable, but not quite conclusive, evidence was found. ZERO verifiable evidence has been found to support the God theory.

The bible is just a claim of evidence for a Christian god, the Quran is just a claim of evidence for a Muslim god, and so on etc., but no myth or belief has ever been verified to be true by any stretch of the imagination where God is invoked and we've had a long time to complete our analysis. I think it's fair to say the silence speaks for itself.
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