Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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01-02-2017, 05:35 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 04:26 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  No gods exist. If they existed we wouldn't have to ask the question.

Until they do exist and/or it's been verified by more than just 'belief of existence' then the answer is no due to lack of evidence. Nothing to see here we should all move on.

"I don't know if Gods exist or not" would be accurate if some verifiable, but not quite conclusive, evidence was found. ZERO verifiable evidence has been found to support the God theory.

The bible is just a claim of evidence for a Christian god, the Quran is just a claim of evidence for a Muslim god, and so on etc., but no myth or belief has ever been verified to be true by any stretch of the imagination where God is invoked and we've had a long time to complete our analysis. I think it's fair to say the silence speaks for itself.
This is one of the weaker arguments.
I try not to use this when debating theists.
They tend to stump me with the following counter argument argument:
This applies to black holes, gravity, dark energy & dark matter.
All forces without tangible evidence.
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01-02-2017, 06:08 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 05:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is one of the weaker arguments.
I try not to use this when debating theists.
They tend to stump me with the following counter argument argument:
This applies to black holes, gravity, dark energy & dark matter.
All forces without tangible evidence.

Go jump off a tall building and then tell us about the lack of tangible evidence for gravity. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2017, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 06:51 PM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 04:26 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  No gods exist. If they existed we wouldn't have to ask the question.

Until they do exist and/or it's been verified by more than just 'belief of existence' then the answer is no due to lack of evidence. Nothing to see here we should all move on.

"I don't know if Gods exist or not" would be accurate if some verifiable, but not quite conclusive, evidence was found. ZERO verifiable evidence has been found to support the God theory.

The bible is just a claim of evidence for a Christian god, the Quran is just a claim of evidence for a Muslim god, and so on etc., but no myth or belief has ever been verified to be true by any stretch of the imagination where God is invoked and we've had a long time to complete our analysis. I think it's fair to say the silence speaks for itself.

Complete lack of evidence for god's existence does not support the claim (or the belief) that he does not exist.

To rationally come to the belief that no gods exist, one needs evidence for that.

Absence of evidence cannot be simply taken as evidence of absence unless you have a logical reason to do that.

Lack of evidence for X does not support Not-X unless in circumstances we could safely assume that the only scenario of "no evidence for X" is the scenario of "no-X", unfortunately in god's case that's not what happens because we can't safely assume that any "universe creator entity" would necessarily provide evidence of its existence.

This is not an argument for theism ofc, is an argument for the irrationality of anti-theism.

PS: To avoid Bucky coming at me with a shotgun, I must inform as well, this is not the only epistemological stance that exists, there are other standards of what constitutes belief and/or relevant evidence.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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01-02-2017, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 06:53 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 05:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is one of the weaker arguments.
I try not to use this when debating theists.
They tend to stump me with the following counter argument argument:
This applies to black holes, gravity, dark energy & dark matter.
All forces without tangible evidence.

Go jump off a tall building and then tell us about the lack of tangible evidence for gravity. Drinking Beverage
I tried telling them that.
They responded:
The ground is tangible, not gravity. Physicist are still searching for the graviton particle which gives energy mass... Etc.
Forces aren't tangible.

Trust me it's a really weak argument.
If it's a Christian just go for the a merciful being cannot create an eternal hell argument.
Or the "How can God resurrect himself unless he really wasn't dead to begin with.
Or my personal favorite:
Is Jesus dead or Alive?
When they say Alive... Reply "So what did God sacrifice?"
Debate never gets passed that.
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01-02-2017, 06:51 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:48 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Go jump off a tall building and then tell us about the lack of tangible evidence for gravity. Drinking Beverage
I tried telling them that.
They responded:
The ground is tangible not gravity.

The acceleration of the falling body is the evidence. The ground provides evidence of inertia.

Quote:Physicist are still searching for the graviton particle which gives energy mass... Etc.
Forces aren't tangible.

Trust me it's a really weak argument.

Sorry, which is a really weak argument?

Forces are shown to exist by their effects; that is sufficient evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:48 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Go jump off a tall building and then tell us about the lack of tangible evidence for gravity. Drinking Beverage
I tried telling them that.
They responded:
The ground is tangible not gravity. Physicist are still searching for the graviton particle which gives energy mass... Etc.
Forces aren't tangible.

Trust me it's a really weak argument.

I agree with you about the argument strength, but we do have tangible evidence for the existence of gravity, we can reproducibly test it and confirm reliably that something is responsible for our results and that, which is the responsible, does exist, and then we can call that whatever we want, and name it Gravity.

What we might not have is any way to deduce it is exactly what we currently think it is. (as far as I know)

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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01-02-2017, 06:58 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:31 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Complete lack of evidence for god's existence does not support the claim (or the belief) that he does not exist.

Yes, it does. The absence of evidence that should be there is convincing.

Quote:To rationally come to the belief that no gods exist, one needs evidence for that.

No, one does not. The absence of evidence is sufficient to rationally conclude non-existence.

Quote:Absence of evidence cannot be simply taken as evidence of absence unless you have a logical reason to do that.

And that logical reason is that there should be evidence of some god were it to exist.

Quote:Lack of evidence for X does not support Not-X unless in circumstances we could safely assume that the only scenario of "no evidence for X" is the scenario of "no-X", unfortunately in god's case that's not what happens because we can't safely assume that any "universe creator entity" would necessarily provide evidence of its existence.

If it is undetectable, it is no different than non-existent.

Quote:This is not an argument for theism ofc, is an argument for the irrationality of anti-theism.

Anti-theism is not irrational, but it is a response to irrationality.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2017, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 07:43 PM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  And that logical reason is that there should be evidence of some god were it to exist.

Why do you think we can assume that?

Isn't there a possibility that there is plenty of evidence available for something (like multiverse theory, or the effect that gravity has on the "fabric of the space/time", per example) that we are currently unable to detect?

How could we safely assume that this would not be the same in the case of some other unknown phenomena? (like the existence of something that could qualify for a god)

Should we presume that anything that we have no evidence for must necessarily not exist? For that wouldn't be necessary to be able to make sure we currently can detect 100% of evidence for everything that exists?

Isn't there even the possibility (logically speaking) of an entity that removes, or turns impossible to perceive any evidence for its existence?

Can we rule those things out just on the bases of "you are making this shit up", instead of realizing that we have no logical way to conclude those things?

How can we rule of the existence of a joker god who enjoys watching people debate its existence, who provides anecdotal evidence to those who already believe in it by faith and making sure no evidence could ever be detectable to those who are skeptics of his existence?

Can we rule out this joker god (that I just made up)?

Even if I just made this up, is there any way for us to conclude that is impossible that I'm right by coincidence?

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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01-02-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:48 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I tried telling them that.
They responded:
The ground is tangible not gravity.

The acceleration of the falling body is the evidence. The ground provides evidence of inertia.

Quote:Physicist are still searching for the graviton particle which gives energy mass... Etc.
Forces aren't tangible.

Trust me it's a really weak argument.

Sorry, which is a really weak argument?

Forces are shown to exist by their effects; that is sufficient evidence.
If your only evidence for the existence of something is none tangible & all you can say is we can feel it's presence... You can see where I'm going with this right?
They are gonna play the hypocrite card.

Trust me stay away from that argument.
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01-02-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:56 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:48 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I tried telling them that.
They responded:
The ground is tangible not gravity. Physicist are still searching for the graviton particle which gives energy mass... Etc.
Forces aren't tangible.

Trust me it's a really weak argument.

I agree with you about the argument strength, but we do have tangible evidence for the existence of gravity, we can reproducibly test it and confirm reliably that something is responsible for our results and that, which is the responsible, does exist, and then we can call that whatever we want, and name it Gravity.

What we might not have is any way to deduce it is exactly what we currently think it is. (as far as I know)
They are gonna pull the "Theory" card.
Eg.
It's called the "Theory of Gravity" & you believe in that Theory right? Well we believe in the "Theory of God".
The reason why I say it's a weak argument is because it's easily defended compared to so many other stronger arguments against God.
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