Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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01-02-2017, 07:45 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 07:00 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:58 PM)Chas Wrote:  And that logical reason is that there should be evidence of some god were it to exist.

Why do you think we can assume that?

Isn't there a possibility that there is plenty of evidence available for something (like multiverse theory, or the effect that gravity has on the "fabric of the space/time", per example) that we are currently unable to detect?

How could we safely assume that this would not be the same in the case of some other unknown phenomena? (like the existence of something that could qualify for a god)

Should we presume that anything that we have no evidence for must necessarily not exist? For that wouldn't be necessary to be able to make sure we currently can detect 100% of evidence for everything that exists?

Isn't there even the possibility (logically speaking) of an entity that removes, or turns impossible to perceive any evidence for its existence?

Can we rule those things out just on the bases of "you are making this shit up", instead of realizing that we have no logical way to conclude those things?
You said "Isn't there even the possibility (logically speaking) of an entity that removes, or turns impossible to perceive any evidence for its existence?"
There is a bit of a flaw here with that logic I think.
Hard Empirical Evidence is not the only type of Evidence science uses. Statistical Evidence (Patterns) are also used to determine the existence of a force (presence)
You see the instant anyone speaks about what God want's we automatically get an opportunity to test for evidence of it's existence.
Eg.
Statistical probability you weren't hallucinating?
Unbelievably Accurate predictions
Accurate explanations about the nature of things way ahead of current science
Miraculous Healing

These are some of the the arguments religious adherents put forward as proof of the Divine.
It is repeatable, testable & falsifiable.

These aren't tangible evidences but science does use statistical data when determining the presence of a force.

A popular example that recognizes the existence of a force by only the use of statistics data is the double slit experiment.
Some say it's consciousness, while others say it's just interference from the measuring apparatus, but no one denies that it's effects aren't visible based on the statistics.
Statistical data is evidence.
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01-02-2017, 07:47 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 05:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 04:26 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  No gods exist. If they existed we wouldn't have to ask the question.

Until they do exist and/or it's been verified by more than just 'belief of existence' then the answer is no due to lack of evidence. Nothing to see here we should all move on.

"I don't know if Gods exist or not" would be accurate if some verifiable, but not quite conclusive, evidence was found. ZERO verifiable evidence has been found to support the God theory.

The bible is just a claim of evidence for a Christian god, the Quran is just a claim of evidence for a Muslim god, and so on etc., but no myth or belief has ever been verified to be true by any stretch of the imagination where God is invoked and we've had a long time to complete our analysis. I think it's fair to say the silence speaks for itself.
This is one of the weaker arguments.
I try not to use this when debating theists.
They tend to stump me with the following counter argument argument:
This applies to black holes, gravity, dark energy & dark matter.
All forces without tangible evidence.

Well then just slap them down with logic my friend. I'm not sure who's making the argument here... you or they?

First off all the forces listed above are detectable and verifiable with real data sets whereas deity's and/or Gods seem to lack any real data at all to put it nicely. You can probably google it. Argument over and now onto the god of the gaps syndrome I suppose. But to continue a "force" is not what we're talking about we're talking about a "God" and specifically the lack of evidence for a God with intelligence and a pension for supposedly long ago intervening into our natural daily world but then completely disappearing suspiciously well ahead of the invention of technology (cell phones with integrated camera's, computers, and deep space telescopes). The subject at hand is a deity a creator a God a ghost with intelligence but lacking any evidence whatsoever not natural forces that show up in raw scientific data sets aka evidence.

But I understand where you're coming from. We're not allowed to say God's don't exist because there's no evidence for them. Well unicorns don't exist because there's no evidence for them either but when I say that no one throws a tantrum. The issue here is theirs to own and theirs only.
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01-02-2017, 07:57 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
You guys are confused. You can reasonably come to some conclusions. Don't go insane. For example... I cannot prove that God's don't have owners that are HUGE poodles and it's the poodles that own the homes the God's live in and the poodles have given the God's little universes as toys to play with while away at work.

I will now follow this up with a 3,000 page bible/manual regarding the poodle beings and how they require our worship via the Gods.
So to summarize... God owning poodles created the universe and that's it.

Now you have to respond... are you not prepared to just go ahead and rule that out by saying the God owning poodle beings don't exist?

Good. Gods don't exist either for the same reason. No evidence to support such an insane idea.
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01-02-2017, 08:11 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(11-10-2016 11:54 AM)unknowndevil666 Wrote:  The one thing all atheists can agree on is that they do not hold a belief in anything they would call god. However, "I do not believe X" is not the same thing as "I believe NOT X". By example, "I do not believe a god(s) exists" is not the same as "I believe no god(s) exists". So I want to poll this distinction.
We should all know this, but keep in mind that "I believe" is not the same thing as "I know". For example, "I'm pretty sure that fairies don't exist, but I can't be certain of it" means "Yes, I believe fairies don't exist".
Last thing, you can use any definition of "god" that you think is relevant. Basically, just don't define "god" as "toaster".
If the question isn't clear, simply don't answer the poll. I'm looking for strict answers.

Oh yes I believe in Jesus Chrystal, my savior. He was by earlier. Needed to borrow $100.00 to replace a shirt he'd foolishly given away.

Now I'm down 100 bucks and probably won't see him again.

He's like that.

All promise, no delivery. Consider

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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01-02-2017, 08:12 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 07:57 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  You guys are confused. You can reasonably come to some conclusions. Don't go insane. For example... I cannot prove that God's don't have owners that are HUGE poodles and it's the poodles that own the homes the God's live in and the poodles have given the God's little universes as toys to play with while away at work.

I will now follow this up with a 3,000 page bible/manual regarding the poodle beings and how they require our worship via the Gods.
So to summarize... God owning poodles created the universe and that's it.

Now you have to respond... are you not prepared to just go ahead and rule that out by saying the God owning poodle beings don't exist?

Good. Gods don't exist either for the same reason. No evidence to support such an insane idea.
This would only apply to a Complex description of God.
Some theists believe God created the universe to be self sustaining & then left it alone after that.
They use arguments from intelligent design as evidence (mainly the universe was ridiculously more likely to collapse within seconds of it's creation than to be here now)
It's a strong argument but pointless because such a being is of no use to me.
I'm just saying some arguments against the existence of God are much better than others.
If only all Theists were Christians this would be so easy.
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01-02-2017, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 08:51 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 07:47 PM)dirtstar Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 05:35 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This is one of the weaker arguments.
I try not to use this when debating theists.
They tend to stump me with the following counter argument argument:
This applies to black holes, gravity, dark energy & dark matter.
All forces without tangible evidence.

Well then just slap them down with logic my friend. I'm not sure who's making the argument here... you or they?

First off all the forces listed above are detectable and verifiable with real data sets whereas deity's and/or Gods seem to lack any real data at all to put it nicely. You can probably google it. Argument over and now onto the god of the gaps syndrome I suppose. But to continue a "force" is not what we're talking about we're talking about a "God" and specifically the lack of evidence for a God with intelligence and a pension for supposedly long ago intervening into our natural daily world but then completely disappearing suspiciously well ahead of the invention of technology (cell phones with integrated camera's, computers, and deep space telescopes). The subject at hand is a deity a creator a God a ghost with intelligence but lacking any evidence whatsoever not natural forces that show up in raw scientific data sets aka evidence.

But I understand where you're coming from. We're not allowed to say God's don't exist because there's no evidence for them. Well unicorns don't exist because there's no evidence for them either but when I say that no one throws a tantrum. The issue here is theirs to own and theirs only.
I've been debating religious people since I was 15. I'm 35 now. It's a hobby of mine.
It satisfies my ego. I'm not afraid to say it.
During this time I have grown to know which arguments work better than others. It could just be I could have done a better job with some of my weaker arguments, but it's just human nature to use the ones that get better results.

One thing I can promise any aspiring debater after 20 years of doing it at the informal level, if they don't have any significant event or epiphany that caused them to question their God they are never gonna change based on logic & reasoning.

Concerning the Unicorn argument:
I tried the Unicorn/Leprechaun/Santa/EB/TF/God argument as grounds for incredulity, however they rebut this with a "compare apples with apples" argument.
A unicorn is described as a tangible thing whereas God is described as an intangible force. Then comes the Gravity/God argument & we end up debating over which belief (without tangible evidence) is stronger.

In my experience logical fallacies are the way to go.
Here are some winners:
For Muslims: Merciful God cannot use Eternal Punishment
For Christians: If Jesus is alive, there is no Sacrifice
For Hindus: The Caste system
For Buddhists: It doesn't matter if I'm an Atheists, once my virtues are pure.
For Jews: I'm not an Israelite so your God does not apply to me.
Not much practice with the smaller religions.
I like debating Atheists as well, but only against the weaker arguments.
I like debating everyone actually. It's probably why I don't keep friends with strong beliefs very long.
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01-02-2017, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 09:02 PM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 08:12 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This would only apply to a Complex description of God.
Some theists believe God created the universe to be self sustaining & then left it alone after that.
They use arguments from intelligent design as evidence (mainly the universe was ridiculously more likely to collapse within seconds of it's creation than to be here now)
If only all Theists were Christians this would be so easy.

That's a Deist.

About your critique of my concept of Joker God, is not the case, there's no faulty reasoning or ignorance of statistical inference, if you are interested research Discartes's Evil Genius AKA Deus deceptor, you will notice that is not possible to imply the non-existence of such entity, you can only make a case for it to not matter, in terms of it being indistinguishable from its non-existence, but that, despite Chas (and others) proclamations, does not follow logically to the belief of non-existence.

X being indistinguishable from no-X does not imply no-X, and merely lack of evidence for X also does not supports No-X, even when X is something ridiculous, and it doesn't matter how horribly originated, or how ill-founded are the theist beliefs, resorting to "we just know there's no god because it's fucking obvious" is not skepticism.

Also, despite what some others said like "its mythology from ages ago", the origin of an idea holds no weight on it being true or not, since any "wrongly formulated idea" could be right by coincidence.

In any case, I will check my etymology (once again), to see if I learn something new that contradicts (or reinforces) those standards of belief and evidence.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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01-02-2017, 08:56 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 08:42 PM)Velvet Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 08:12 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  This would only apply to a Complex description of God.
Some theists believe God created the universe to be self sustaining & then left it alone after that.
They use arguments from intelligent design as evidence (mainly the universe was ridiculously more likely to collapse within seconds of it's creation than to be here now)
If only all Theists were Christians this would be so easy.

That's a Deist.

About your critique of my concept of Joker God, is not the case, there's no faulty reasoning or ignorance of statistical inference, if you are interested research Discartes's Evil Genius AKA Deus deceptor, you will notice that is not possible to imply the non-existence of such entity, you can only make a case for it to not matter, in terms of it being indistinguishable from its non-existence, but that, despite Chas (and others) proclamations, does not follow logically to the belief of non-existence.

X being indistinguishable from not X does not imply not X, and lack of evidence for X does not imply Not-X, even when X is something ridiculous, and it doesn't matter how much theists have ill basis for their beliefs.

Also, despite what some others said like "its mythology from ages ago", the origin of an idea holds no weight on its being true or not, since "wrongly formulated idea" could be right by coincidence.

In any case, I will check my etymology (once again), to see if I learn something new that contradicts (or reinforces) those standards of belief and evidence.
Not mutually exclusive though.
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01-02-2017, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2017 09:18 PM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
Chas and I seem to disagree in only 1 point.

His stance is (if I understood perfectly) follows from his belief that "If there was a god, evidence would be encountered, necessarily", If I were to concede this, we would agree in everything else that comes after, but instead; I defend that "If there was a god, evidence would not necessarily be encountered", meaning that, in this case, we can't (unfortunately) conclude nothing from the lack of evidence from any god.

Then, maybe if we were talking about one god specifically, I would probably agree with him.

But I find unreasonable to assume that the only way a god would exist, is if it was one that would provide evidence for its existence, I can (and philosophers did) conceive entities that would rather hide, and would be powerful enough to do it to perfection.

I'm not making a case for the existence of this kind of god, but since it could possibly exist, is not rational to simply assume that he doesn't.

@Chas, when/if you read this, I'm addressing you as well, I just used 3rd person to try to clarify where exactly is our disagreement.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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01-02-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 07:13 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  They are gonna pull the "Theory" card.
Eg.
It's called the "Theory of Gravity" & you believe in that Theory right? Well we believe in the "Theory of God".
The reason why I say it's a weak argument is because it's easily defended compared to so many other stronger arguments against God.
It would seem that your interlocutor here does not understand the scientific sense of the word theory, or else does understand and is dishonestly conflating it with the colloquial definition.

Scientific definition of "theory": A proven explanatory framework considered by the entire scientific community to be fully proven and validated.

Colloquial definition of "theory": An idea that someone is floating for the hell of it or a hypothesis that isn't falsifiable / scientific. Sometimes, even wrongly used for a scientifically valid hypothesis which is not yet proven.

Ask the theist who used the scientific theory of gravity as an example of something he believes in and thinks you should believe in, if he believes the scientific theory of evolution, and if not, why not.

There is no scientific "theory of god" based on evidence. There is just what people imagine and claim about god, based on the failed epistemology of religious faith.
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