Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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02-02-2017, 08:24 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 08:27 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 07:16 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 09:54 PM)Velvet Wrote:  For the lack of evidence be an argument for the non-existence of any gods, we would need to assume that if a god existed there would necessarily be evidence.

This whole debate implicitly asserts the primacy of Aristotelian logic over other equally consistent many-valued logics. If you treat truth value as a relation instead of a function and admit "unknown" and "unknowable" as truth values (i.e. {T}, {F},{T,F},{}) this entire debate is moot (i.e. nothing more than an academic debate over the intrinsic limitations of Aristotelian logic).

If you read my last posts you will not only see that I did not claim to have made up deus deceptor (just my very simplified version of it, and just for the sake of it "being just made up"), as I referenced the link (the same) to Descartes's version.

...but also have made clear that there are other standards of what constitutes evidence, knowledge and belief in epistemology.

Your 2 objections were addressed (in the same way you did) before you posted them.

Still, thank you for your thoughtful critique.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-02-2017, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 08:32 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 08:24 AM)Velvet Wrote:  If you read my last posts you will not only see that I did not claim to have made up deus deceptor (just my very simplified version of it, and just for the sake of it "being just made up"),

Descartes version was just as simple if not simpler - "as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me." What exactly do you think you made up 'cause I ain't seeing it.

#sigh
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02-02-2017, 08:34 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 06:58 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 09:33 PM)Velvet Wrote:  I think his point is that he rathers debating using the most efficient arguments and not the best ones.

The most efficient arguments are the best ones. "It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience." - Albert Funkinsteen

You missed the point, some theists are simply too deluded or uneducated to understand (or even consider) some arguments, despite they being supported by evidence and having clear formulation.

Worst arguments, in those cases, might (or might not) be more efficient in thought provoking or persuasion.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-02-2017, 08:46 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2017 09:56 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 08:28 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-02-2017 08:24 AM)Velvet Wrote:  If you read my last posts you will not only see that I did not claim to have made up deus deceptor (just my very simplified version of it, and just for the sake of it "being just made up"),

Descartes version was just as simple if not simpler - "as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me." What exactly do you think you made up 'cause I ain't seeing it.

The fact that I referenced the same link that you did should be enough to rule out that I "think that I made up" the concept.

It was convenient to use the "just made up" term, not to claim that the idea was mine, but to demonstrate it was unfounded and unsupported, is a "just maded up idea".

I just called it simpler because I had no intention to describe it further going deeper into etymology and attacks to skepticism in general.

When this notion was objected, I noticed my short description was not enough, so I referenced to the same link that you did.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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02-02-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 05:45 AM)Velvet Wrote:  Yes, but none of this matters, unless we have evidence that this is not the case, we shouldn't assume that it isn't just because it seems preposterous.

Technically I could come up with a preposterous idea just now, and by an extreme coincidence get it 100% right, not because I actually know what I'm talking about, but because I got lucky, is not impossible.

Its faulty reasoning to judge ideas based on where/how/when that idea come to be, nothing of this holds as evidence for its falsehood, an idea's true/false status is completely detached from its source, the way it was conceived and/or apparent preposterousness.
It matters quite a lot. There are an almost infinite things that we can imagine. Most of them are false. Unless we have evidence or some reasonable source of information leading towards a conjectured conclusion, we ought not take that conclusion very seriously.

Is there a reasonable source of information leading us towards a conclusion of the existence of intelligent entities without physical form which hold power (outside the known physical forces) to manipulate material existence?

Note: I am not saying that I hold a belief that gods do not exist. (actually, I am ignostic). But what I am saying is that I totally ignore the idea of gods, totally disregard them because there is no substantial underpinnings leading towards this silly idea. Just as I disregard the idea of fairies and leprachauns, I don't know that they don't exist. I don't hold a belief that they don't exist, there is just no evidence or definition to even entertain the question as to whether they exist or not.
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03-02-2017, 01:55 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2017 03:33 AM by Velvet.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 02:14 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Note: I am not saying that I hold a belief that gods do not exist. (actually, I am ignostic). But what I am saying is that I totally ignore the idea of gods, totally disregard them because there is no substantial underpinnings leading towards this silly idea. Just as I disregard the idea of fairies and leprechauns, I don't know that they don't exist. I don't hold a belief that they don't exist, there is just no evidence or definition to even entertain the question as to whether they exist or not.

That means you actually agree with me.

Yes, I can see no problem in dismissing an idea while it doesn't hold to your criteria for consideration.

What I'm against is to hold a belief for the negative, based only on the absence of evidence for the positive IF you entertain being rational on your beliefs whenever you can.

Dismissing an idea does not lead you to the belief that it is false, people are conflating this, like "if I don't need it to consider it, then I hold the belief that it doesn't exist".

But yeah, it could still be wise to dismiss most (if not all) unfalsifiable ideas.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
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03-02-2017, 06:15 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(02-02-2017 08:24 AM)Velvet Wrote:  as I referenced the link (the same) to Descartes's version.

Quick question. Did you ever read this author?

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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03-02-2017, 07:11 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(01-02-2017 06:31 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Complete lack of evidence for god's existence does not support the claim (or the belief) that he does not exist. [...]

As the proponent of a claim that god(s) exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you. It's not the task of the atheist to prove that gods don't exist.

If I make the claim that I can fly, then I have to prove it to you by jumping off a skyscraper. It's not up to you "prove" that I cannot fly.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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03-02-2017, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2017 07:55 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 07:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(01-02-2017 06:31 PM)Velvet Wrote:  Complete lack of evidence for god's existence does not support the claim (or the belief) that he does not exist. [...]

As the proponent of a claim that god(s) exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you. It's not the task of the atheist to prove that gods don't exist.

If I make the claim that I can fly, then I have to prove it to you by jumping off a skyscraper. It's not up to you "prove" that I cannot fly.
He is Ignostic. He never made the claim "God(s) exist" or "God(s) do not exist"
He is simply saying he does not know or believe in the existence/none existence of God(s)
Therefore, this does not default to a claim that God(s) do not exist.
To anyone that makes the claim that "God(s) does not exist" he can say this:

"As the proponent of a claim that god(s) DO NOT exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you. It's not the task of the Ignostic to prove that god exists because he never made such a claim."

"If I make the claim that I cannot fly, then I have to find some way to prove it to you. It's not up to you "prove" that I can fly."

If you rebut this with an argument from popularity (argument ad populum) it will become a logical fallacy.
I.e. Everyone knows you can't fly. You don't have to prove it to us.

A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.
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03-02-2017, 08:03 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
In my experience when debating Theists the only way to PROVE that something cannot exist is to find logical fallacies within the argument:
Eg.
An unchanging God that changes his mind cannot exist.
An all knowing God that does nor know what will happen next cannot exist.
An all merciful God that shows no mercy to the inhabitants of an eternal hell cannot exist.
An all powerful God that is powerless to prevent something from happening cannot exist.
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