Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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03-02-2017, 09:46 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.

Actually it's not rational to believe something does not exist, unless you have some sort of evidence to suggest it doesn't. Without evidence your left with a lack a belief.

Let's say when it comes to supernatural, the evidence in this case to believe it does not exist, could be the evidence in support of the natural world being all that there is.

Absent of any sort of evidence one way or the other, the position is merely to lack a belief, such as I would say about your marital status, I lack a belief in whether your married or not, because I have nothing to suggest one way or the other.

It wouldn't be rational to believe you're not married, merely because I haven't seen any evidence for or against your marital status.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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03-02-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.

Actually it's not rational to believe something does not exist, unless you have some sort of evidence to suggest it doesn't. Without evidence your left with a lack a belief.

Let's say when it comes to supernatural, the evidence in this case to believe it does not exist, could be the evidence in support of the natural world being all that there is.

Absent of any sort of evidence one way or the other, the position is merely to lack a belief, such as I would say about your marital status, I lack a belief in whether your married or not, because I have nothing to suggest one way or the other.

It wouldn't be rational to believe you're not married, merely because I haven't seen any evidence for or against your marital status.
I agree.
I do have evidence for & against the existence of God. It all depends on how you describe God.
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04-02-2017, 03:10 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 07:11 AM)SYZ Wrote:  As the proponent of a claim that god(s) exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you. It's not the task of the atheist to prove that gods don't exist.

If I make the claim that I can fly, then I have to prove it to you by jumping off a skyscraper. It's not up to you "prove" that I cannot fly.
He is Ignostic. He never made the claim "God(s) exist" or "God(s) do not exist"
He is simply saying he does not know or believe in the existence/non existence of God(s)

Which makes him an agnostic. Atheists are effectively ignostic.

Quote:Therefore, this does not default to a claim that God(s) do not exist.
To anyone that makes the claim that "God(s) does not exist" he can say this:
"As the proponent of a claim that god(s) DO NOT exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you."

Nope. He cannot say this. The burden of proof to support my claim that leprechauns do not exist does not lie with me. It lies with my opponent to prove that they do—as the contrarian.

Quote:"If I make the claim that I cannot fly, then I have to find some way to prove it to you. It's not up to you "prove" that I can fly."

If you rebut this with an argument from popularity (argument ad populum) it will become a logical fallacy.
I.e. Everyone knows you can't fly. You don't have to prove it to us.

Again, not so. This is just silly. And totally without any logic.

Quote:A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.

So you apparently accept the possibility that leprechauns do exist—because there's no evidence that they do not? Oh fucking dear.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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04-02-2017, 03:33 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It wouldn't be rational to believe you're not married, merely because I haven't seen any evidence for or against your marital status.
Although, of course, we know that people exist, we know that marriage certificates exist. We know it is quite reasonable that this person might be married.

The existence of gods, on the other hand, is a whole new ball game.
We don't know what a god is.
We have no knowledge of any god existing.
We have no knowledge of any intelligent entity, without any physical substance, existing.
We have no knowledge of any invisible, undetectable entities interacting with the universe via forces other than the known physical forces of the existent universe.
We have no knowledge or experience of any supernatural beings or forces let alone any magical supernatural, undetectable gods.
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04-02-2017, 03:43 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 01:55 AM)Velvet Wrote:  That means you actually agree with me.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you.

I don't think the proponents for "gods" have gotten far enough in formulating their idea to even ask the question "Do god's exist?"
They need to put more effort into it before presenting this question.
At the moment it seems to be something that has been dreamed up from a fertile imagination. Whether they have accidentally stumbled on to truth is unknown but it is unlikely given the almost infinite things that can be dreamed up.

(03-02-2017 01:55 AM)Velvet Wrote:  What I'm against is to hold a belief for the negative, based only on the absence of evidence for the positive IF you entertain being rational on your beliefs whenever you can.
I agree with you here, this is why I am a weak atheist rather than a strong atheist. But hey, people believe a myriad of things. My position (assuming a god doesn't exist) is effectively no different from a person holding a belief that gods don't exist.
I do get somewhat annoyed however when they get all smug and make claims as if they have evidence that gods don't exist. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
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04-02-2017, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2017 06:21 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 03:10 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  He is Ignostic. He never made the claim "God(s) exist" or "God(s) do not exist"
He is simply saying he does not know or believe in the existence/non existence of God(s)

Which makes him an agnostic. Atheists are effectively ignostic.

Quote:Therefore, this does not default to a claim that God(s) do not exist.
To anyone that makes the claim that "God(s) does not exist" he can say this:
"As the proponent of a claim that god(s) DO NOT exist, the burden of proof lies entirely with you."

Nope. He cannot say this. The burden of proof to support my claim that leprechauns do not exist does not lie with me. It lies with my opponent to prove that they do—as the contrarian.

Quote:"If I make the claim that I cannot fly, then I have to find some way to prove it to you. It's not up to you "prove" that I can fly."

If you rebut this with an argument from popularity (argument ad populum) it will become a logical fallacy.
I.e. Everyone knows you can't fly. You don't have to prove it to us.

Again, not so. This is just silly. And totally without any logic.

Quote:A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.

So you apparently accept the possibility that leprechauns do exist—because there's no evidence that they do not? Oh fucking dear.

You said "Nope. He cannot say this. The burden of proof to support my claim that leprechauns do not exist does not lie with me. It lies with my opponent to prove that they do—as the contrarian."
How does the burden of proof lie with him? He never made the claim leprechaun's do or don't exist.
All he is saying is that "he doesn't know or believe". That's the only claim he is making.
You are the one making a claim that Leprechauns do not exist.
He is well within his right to ask you how do you know this?
You can't shift the burden of proof by saying "How do you know they do exist?" Because he never made such a claim.

How did you get from me saying "a lack of evidence about the existence of something is reason to believe it does not exist" to saying "I believe leprechauns might exist"?
Based on the logic I put forward it would be reason to believe they DON'T exist, but not proof of it's none existence.
Please tell me you misread something.
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04-02-2017, 06:47 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 03:33 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Although, of course, we know that people exist, we know that marriage certificates exist. We know it is quite reasonable that this person might be married.

And that's adds nothing at all to what I said.

I don't know one way or the other whether, Agnostic Shane is married or not. If I didn't per se know what marriage meant. The position would still be that I don't know whether Agnostic Shane is married or not, particularly since I don't know what marriage means, let alone have any additional information to suggest one way or the other regarding his status.


Absent of any reason to assume other wise, the only position one can have is a lack of belief, not a belief that X is not true. To assume X is not true, or X does not exist, you'd have you'd have reasons for that, and not just a mere lack of evidence, such as the natural world is all thats known to exist, therefore it likely all that exist, therefore nothing non-natural/supernatual likely exist, or nothing that violates the laws of physics exist, etc...

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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04-02-2017, 07:27 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And that's adds nothing at all to what I said.
...........
If I didn't per se know what marriage meant.

You said something ?
Dependent clauses are not sentences, Mr. Fake PhD.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-02-2017, 07:31 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(03-02-2017 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-02-2017 07:28 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A lack of evidence does not prove the none existence of something. It's just more rational to believe it does not exist, but it does not PROVE anything.

Actually it's not rational to believe something does not exist, unless you have some sort of evidence to suggest it doesn't. Without evidence your left with a lack a belief.

Let's say when it comes to supernatural, the evidence in this case to believe it does not exist, could be the evidence in support of the natural world being all that there is.

Absent of any sort of evidence one way or the other, the position is merely to lack a belief, such as I would say about your marital status, I lack a belief in whether your married or not, because I have nothing to suggest one way or the other.

It wouldn't be rational to believe you're not married, merely because I haven't seen any evidence for or against your marital status.

Can you give me one example that proves something doesn't exist outside of a logical fallacy?
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04-02-2017, 07:39 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2017 07:43 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:31 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Can you give me one example that proves something doesn't exist outside of a logical fallacy?

Sure, all that exists is the natural world, therefore anything supernatural does not exist.

Physicalism is true, therefore anything, any being, etc that violates a physicalist view of the world does not exist, or is not true.

The laws of physics can't be violated, anything that violates the laws of physics does not exist.

The world, humanity etc, is just one big puddle, therefore anything that appeals to design, or intention is false.

Any position that makes it unlikely for any alternative to be true will suffice.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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