Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
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04-02-2017, 07:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The probability for it happening at all is infinitesimally less likely than it not happening.

And yet, here we are.

Please stop copying and pasting pages. Simply provide a link to entire pages. Anyone interested can follow it up.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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04-02-2017, 07:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We are comparing (based on current scientific data):
The chance that it happened at all vs it not happening at all.
The probability for it happening at all is infinitesimally less likely than it not happening.

And how does anyone know this?

Since the universe (as we know it) exists the probability of it existing is 1 or 100%.
The probability of it not existing is 0.

You use the word “happening” which doesn’t make any sense in the context. Do you mean exists?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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04-02-2017, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2017 07:57 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:26 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We are comparing (based on current scientific data):
The chance that it happened at all vs it not happening at all.
The probability for it happening at all is infinitesimally less likely than it not happening.

And how does anyone know this?

Since the universe (as we know it) exists the probability of it existing is 1 or 100%.
The probability of it not existing is 0.

You use the word “happening” which doesn’t make any sense in the context. Do you mean exists?
I never said we were comparing the the current universe with a none existent universe.
I used the word happen, because we are comparing ways in which the current universe can happen vs ways it cannot happen, using current scientific data:

These are the summarized results based on Martin Rees' findings:
1. If the ratio of the strength of electromagnetism to the strength of gravity for a pair of protons were significantly smaller, only a small and short-lived universe could exist.
2. If the nuclear efficiency of fusion from hydrogen to helium were above 0.008, no hydrogen would exist, as all the hydrogen would have been fused shortly after the big bang.
3. If gravity were too strong compared with dark energy and the initial metric expansion, the universe would have collapsed before life could have evolve.
4. If gravity were too weak, no stars would have formed.
5. If the cosmological constant of 10−122 were not extremely small, stars and other astronomical structures would not be able to form..
6. If the number of spatial dimensions in spacetime were 2 or 4 instead of 3 life could not exist

What can you infer from the above data?
I inferred that "It is statistically improbable that the current universe is the result of purely entropic causes based on current data."
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04-02-2017, 07:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:13 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The probability for it happening at all is infinitesimally less likely than it not happening.

And yet, here we are.

Please stop copying and pasting pages. Simply provide a link to entire pages. Anyone interested can follow it up.
What are you on about?Consider
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04-02-2017, 10:08 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  You seem to think we are comparing "the way the current universe is vs some other way it can be."

Yes. Because that is what you are comparing. Or attempting to, anyway; since you can't, because you don't even know if there is another way it can be, you have less than no argument. Fine-tuning cannot be true if there is no tuning possible.

Shane, when you can't even keep your own argument straight, it's time to stop posting.

(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We are comparing (based on current scientific data):
The chance that it happened at all vs it not happening at all.

We do not have the ability to determine those odds. Therefore, you cannot argue anything based on them.

(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  The probability for it happening at all is infinitesimally less likely than it not happening.

And you still don't understand what words mean, and can't type coherent sentences. "Infinitesimally" means as close to zero as possible, Shane. You have just said that there is essentially no difference between the two probabilities - which you still can't actually calculate, and are just speculating wildly about.

(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If you honestly think the information he has given does not say that then I advise you to read it again.

I know exactly what it means, thank you. Rather better than you do, in fact.

Now show me where in that list you manage to establish that any of those values could even possibly have been anything other than what they are.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-02-2017, 10:14 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 06:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And yet you maintain that we cannot know that they do not exist.
Yes, exactly

You are a very, very silly person.

We know that unicorns do not exist. Anyone trying to hold any sort of position to the contrary is just playing silly buggers with the definition of "know" that render it completely worthless.

I am not interested in word games.

(04-02-2017 06:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  We had an entire thread about this previously. I am not interested in repeating it, because you have long since established that you do not understand what the term "garage dragon" means or what its implications are. Anyone who is interested can follow that link.
I understand what it means, I have read the book. You interpret it vastly differently than I do.

Because you failed to understand it.

(04-02-2017 06:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Carl does not make a case for the non existence of god.

It does not matter what Sagan did or did not mean to imply. Even if I were to grant that this was not his intent, it is applicable regardless.

(04-02-2017 06:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:39 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  In a nutshell: "garage dragon" is a term coined by Carl Sagan in his book The Demon-Haunted World, and refers to an entity which is defined as undetectable. The point of the passage in question is that, since the garage dragon is defined as undetectable, it therefore has no properties, and therefore does not exist.
Well, that is an alternative fact.
The story starts off with a firebreathing dragon.
Upon investigation and discovery of seemingly falsifying facts the claim changes e.g. the dragon becomes invisible, the fire becomes heatless.

...until the point that the dragon is defined as undetectable by any means, yes. That is the entire point of the question which you repeatedly and entirely failed to answer throughout the entire previous thread:

What is the difference between a garage dragon and no dragon at all?

The only coherent answer, since the garage dragon has been defined as completely undetectable by any means, is that there is no difference. A garage dragon is no dragon. It does not exist.

But this has been explained to you more than a dozen times already. I do not care to go over it again. The only reason I bother repeating it here is that others might not have read the discussion, and may not be familiar with the term.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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04-02-2017, 10:17 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Here, I'll summarize it for you:

1. If the ratio of the strength of electromagnetism to the strength of gravity for a pair of protons were significantly smaller, only a small and short-lived universe could exist.
2. If the nuclear efficiency of fusion from hydrogen to helium were above 0.008, no hydrogen would exist, as all the hydrogen would have been fused shortly after the big bang.
3. If gravity were too strong compared with dark energy and the initial metric expansion, the universe would have collapsed before life could have evolve.
4. If gravity were too weak, no stars would have formed.
5. If the cosmological constant of 10−122 were not extremely small, stars and other astronomical structures would not be able to form..
6. If the number of spatial dimensions in spacetime were 2 or 4 instead of 3 life could not exist.
Questions:
Is it possible for the strength of electromagnetism or the strength of gravity to be any different from what we observe in our own universe?

If it's not possible for them to be different then the chances are 100% that they will be as we observe them to be.

Now, let's say that these things can vary (for arguments sake).
Are these things consistent throughout our entire universe?
If so, then what is it that determines these things?

We know that it is possible to have one universe, because ours exists.
Do we know if there are some constraints such that there can only be one universe?

If no constrainsts exist, then maybe there are other universes. Would there be a constraint with regards to how many universes there can be?
If no constraints exist then there might be an infinite about of universes.

If there is an infinite amount of universes then even things with infinitesimal chances will happen, and when it does happen there will be intelligent life around to observe and ponder it.
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05-02-2017, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 04:10 AM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 10:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 07:06 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Here, I'll summarize it for you:

1. If the ratio of the strength of electromagnetism to the strength of gravity for a pair of protons were significantly smaller, only a small and short-lived universe could exist.
2. If the nuclear efficiency of fusion from hydrogen to helium were above 0.008, no hydrogen would exist, as all the hydrogen would have been fused shortly after the big bang.
3. If gravity were too strong compared with dark energy and the initial metric expansion, the universe would have collapsed before life could have evolve.
4. If gravity were too weak, no stars would have formed.
5. If the cosmological constant of 10−122 were not extremely small, stars and other astronomical structures would not be able to form..
6. If the number of spatial dimensions in spacetime were 2 or 4 instead of 3 life could not exist.
Questions:
Is it possible for the strength of electromagnetism or the strength of gravity to be any different from what we observe in our own universe?

If it's not possible for them to be different then the chances are 100% that they will be as we observe them to be.

Now, let's say that these things can vary (for arguments sake).
Are these things consistent throughout our entire universe?
If so, then what is it that determines these things?

We know that it is possible to have one universe, because ours exists.
Do we know if there are some constraints such that there can only be one universe?

If no constrainsts exist, then maybe there are other universes. Would there be a constraint with regards to how many universes there can be?
If no constraints exist then there might be an infinite about of universes.

If there is an infinite amount of universes then even things with infinitesimal chances will happen, and when it does happen there will be intelligent life around to observe and ponder it.
Science is based on questions, observations, hypotheses, repeatability, testability, demonstrability, falsifiability, predictability, peer review among other things.
When electromagnetism, hydrogen fusion, gravity, the universal constant & spacial dimensions were examined using the scientific method certain constants were observed.
A question was asked:
Would the universe be SIGNIFICANTLY different should there be small variations in above mentioned constants.

Based on the research done by Martin Rees the answer is a resounding Yes.
It's not a question of whether or not it will be different, it's a question about how much different it will be.
For example a less than 10% drop in the gravity constant would result in galaxies, stars & life being unable to form.
Such a change would affect more than 90% of the known universe.
Hence a small change drastically changes the state of the universe as far as science can predict based on the laws of Physics.
I'm constantly trying to keep this argument within the realm of current scientific knowledge.
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05-02-2017, 03:58 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(04-02-2017 10:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You are a very, very silly person.

We know that unicorns do not exist. Anyone trying to hold any sort of position to the contrary is just playing silly buggers with the definition of "know" that render it completely worthless.

I am not interested in word games.
Where is your evidence for the non existence of unicorns?

I think perhaps you fail to understand that you can't prove a negative. This is why the burdon of proof is on the proponent rather than on us.
It's simple logic really.

There is nothing scary about not being able to prove something doesn't exist. We simply don't have to.
Nothing scary about lacking belief, we don't have to take a position of believing the opposite. It doesn't mean we are humming and haaaing about it, it doesn't mean we are sitting on the fence or thinking that the thing is possible.

(04-02-2017 10:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, that is an alternative fact.
The story starts off with a firebreathing dragon.
Upon investigation and discovery of seemingly falsifying facts the claim changes e.g. the dragon becomes invisible, the fire becomes heatless.

...until the point that the dragon is defined as undetectable by any means, yes. That is the entire point of the question which you repeatedly and entirely failed to answer throughout the entire previous thread:

What is the difference between a garage dragon and no dragon at all?
It's an irrelevant question. It is a feable attempt to create a strawman of the position of theists. Feable and non logical. Theists (not including deists) believe that their god interacts at times of its choosing. So they believe there is a big difference between a god and no god at all. Your strawman is ridiculous to say the least.

(04-02-2017 10:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  The only coherent answer...
The only coherent approach is not to build this silly strawman. It means nothing to theists.
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05-02-2017, 04:03 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 03:43 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A question was asked:
Would the universe be significantly different should there be significant variations in above mentioned constants.

Based on the research done by Martin Rees the answer is a resounding Yes.
Sure, but is it possible for these constants to be any different?

And even if it were, if we assume there are an infinite different universes then we have no problems with infinitesimal probibilities.

Really, all we know is that we do have a universe capable of developing and supporting life. It is possible and it has happened. We don't know why and we aren't assuming anything about why or how.
It does not make sense to rule out the possibility of natural causes.
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