Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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05-02-2017, 12:27 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:18 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:43 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  A question was asked:
Would the universe be SIGNIFICANTLY different should there be small variations in above mentioned constants.

No, Shane. The question that we are asking is whether or not it was even possible for there to be variations at all.

Unless you can show that it was, fine tuning is a non-starter.
I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning. You denied it on the basis that we need to examine other universes first before we can claim it was fine tuning.
I bet even if I could have done that you would still have denied the evidence on some other grounds.

Let me ask you a personal question if you don't mind.
If cosmologists observed a formation of Galaxies in the cosmos that formed the words "God made this" would you say this was an act of randomness or fine tuning?
Would you claim that until we can observe other universes we cannot infer fine tuning or intelligent design?
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05-02-2017, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 12:40 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Pretty much every theist believes their God is immaterial, so requests by atheist for material evidence of his being, like we might ask for Bigfoot do not apply. And keep your strawman about intervention at home, because this point has nothing to do with how God interacts with the world.

Immaterial things are still detectable. Gravity, electromagnetism, and so on.

Presumably, you meant to say that most theists believe God is undetectable, which would place them under the garage dragon category. But it doesn't actually matter, because in either case, we can still be certain that it does not exist.

An immaterial god that is still detectable can be demonstrated to not exist. An immaterial god that is undetectable does not exist by definition.

(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Literally all evidence we have indicates that this is the case.

lol, if that was the case than atheism would be a position based on evidence, rather than a lack of evidence.

Again, do not try to tell anyone else what their beliefs are or are not based on.

I would go into a lengthy ramble about how a lack of evidence where evidence would be necessary can be evidence in and of itself - a lack of elephants in my living room is evidence that there are no elephants in my living room - but it really doesn't matter.

(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Atheism would no longer need to be a lack of belief, but rather be a belief that god does not exist.

It can be either. The latter position is referred to as "gnostic atheism" or "hard atheism", most of the time.

I am a gnostic atheist. In the same way, I am a gnostic a-unicornist, a gnostic a-wizardist, and so on.

(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If that were the case atheist would finally have a burden of proof, an affirming position of their own in contrast to theism, rather than reminding me each and every time how they don't have one.

Quite true. It is just that we meet this burden of proof.

"No god exists" is the null hypothesis; the lack of evidence for any god's existence is sufficient to meet the burden.

(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Are you speaking for all atheists now?

I specifically said "my atheism", so no.

Read before responding, please.

(05-02-2017 05:39 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except for each us, determining what's true is our own personal task.

Truth is truth regardless of who you are. The laws of logic and rationality, what is real and not real, and so on do not change depending on who is looking at them.

Your god either exists or it does not.

It does not.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-02-2017, 12:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning.

No, you didn't. You said "if these numbers were any different, the universe would have been very different".

What you didn't do, and what you need to do in order to have any evidence for fine-tuning whatsoever, is show that those numbers could have been different.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-02-2017, 12:49 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 01:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning.

Since you still haven't answered my plea for help, 'cause you're mean and shit, I'll have to get my info piecemeal.

How is this fine-tuning business any different from Leibniz's best of all possible worlds? Seems like Leibniz was making the same argument 3 centuries ago, no? Why Gottfried get no love?

(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If cosmologists observed a formation of Galaxies in the cosmos that formed the words "God made this" would you say this was an act of randomness or fine tuning?

Both. Random events over an almost inconceivable period of time accidentally stumbled onto a set of weights for the fundamental parameters which resulted in a stable system and voila, out popped Bob. There certainly was no design or purpose involved. Just an old blind man aimlessly stumbling around in the dark until he accidentally ran into a light switch he didn't know was there. And there was light.

#sigh
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05-02-2017, 12:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 07:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Just more strawman to ignore. You guys must have stacks of them piled away somewhere?

Yeah, fuck you too.

#sigh
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05-02-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:58 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Where is your evidence for the non existence of unicorns?

The complete lack of unicorns anywhere in the world.
That's not proof.
That is absence of evidence, it does not equate to evidence of absence.
Perhaps there is a very small population and perhaps they are in a very large jungle and no-one has looked in the right place at the right time.
It's the black swan fallacy.


(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Yes, it is. Which is why it is so strange that you continue to fail to understand it.

The burden of proof is on those who say that unicorns exist. Until such time that any actual evidence of their existence is presented, we operate under the provisional assumption that they do not.
I'm OK with assuming this. But it does not equate to a belief that the thing doesn't exist.

(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If all possible efforts are made to demonstrate the existence of unicorns, but nothing turns up, then we have, for all intents and purposes, proven that they do not exist.
Not when we don't know where to look.
If you tell me that horses exist and I search everywhere in my house, search the closets, the draws, under the beds, in the roof and don't find any horses, it is not reasonable for me to conclude that horses don't exist. I am obviously looking in the wrong places.
My question for you. If invisible gods exist, where are you expecting to look for evidence?
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05-02-2017, 01:09 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  The complete lack of unicorns anywhere in the world.
That's not proof.
That is absence of evidence, it does not equate to evidence of absence.

Yes, it does - if the evidence is absent where we should expect to find it.

A lack of elephants in my living room is proof that there are no elephants in my living room.

(05-02-2017 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  If all possible efforts are made to demonstrate the existence of unicorns, but nothing turns up, then we have, for all intents and purposes, proven that they do not exist.
Not when we don't know where to look.

But we do know where to look.

In the case of unicorns, anywhere that they have been claimed to exist has been searched and turned up nothing. In the case of gods, their claimed interactions with the universe have been investigated, and turned up nothing.

Now, if you'd like to claim that, somewhere out in the universe, there is a planet where horses evolved single horns, that might be more reasonable, but that isn't what is being discussed. We know that magical horses that live in various European forests, have healing powers, and possess a strange fascination with underage virgins do not exist.

(05-02-2017 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My question for you. If invisible gods exist, where are you expecting to look for evidence?

Wherever the theist claims that there would be some.

This has been done. Nothing has been found.

If, on the other hand, the theist claims that there would be no evidence, it is a garage dragon.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-02-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 01:09 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That's not proof.
That is absence of evidence, it does not equate to evidence of absence.

Yes, it does - if the evidence is absent where we should expect to find it.

A lack of elephants in my living room is proof that there are no elephants in my living room.
Sure, yes, because a claim that elephants are in your living room is a falsifiable claim. You know when, where and how to look for them.

But a non specific, non falsifiable claim is insufficient for evaluation.
God claims are insufficient.

(05-02-2017 01:09 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  But we do know where to look.

In the case of unicorns, anywhere that they have been claimed to exist has been searched and turned up nothing. In the case of gods, their claimed interactions with the universe have been investigated, and turned up nothing.
No, we don't know where to look for unicorns. We don't know their size, their colour, their diet, we know nothing about them, we don't know where to look because the claim is insufficient.

(05-02-2017 01:09 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Now, if you'd like to claim that, somewhere out in the universe, there is a planet where horses evolved single horns, that might be more reasonable, but that isn't what is being discussed. We know that magical horses that live in various European forests, have healing powers, and possess a strange fascination with underage virgins do not exist.
Really? Unicorns have magical powers and live in European forests?

(05-02-2017 01:09 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 01:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  My question for you. If invisible gods exist, where are you expecting to look for evidence?

Wherever the theist claims that there would be some.
That's particularly vague, and you claim to have disproven the claims of all theists?
Wow!
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05-02-2017, 02:50 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 02:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Sure, yes, because a claim that elephants are in your living room is a falsifiable claim. You know when, where and how to look for them.

But a non specific, non falsifiable claim is insufficient for evaluation.
God claims are insufficient.

A claim that cannot be falsified is a garage dragon.

Garage dragons do not exist.

(05-02-2017 02:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, we don't know where to look for unicorns. We don't know their size, their colour, their diet, we know nothing about them, we don't know where to look because the claim is insufficient.

You don't seem to know what a unicorn is.

Here. Perhaps this will help.

(05-02-2017 02:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That's particularly vague, and you claim to have disproven the claims of all theists?

It isn't vague at all. It is, in fact, what you have been saying - we must deal with the claims as they are presented.

And yes. No claim about interaction with a deity of any kind has ever resulted in a case stronger than "unknown". "Unknown" is not evidence of a god, any more than it is evidence of wizards. And, in most cases, even saying that it is merely "unknown" is being very charitable - "complete bunk" would be more appropriate.

Gods do not exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-02-2017, 03:18 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 03:51 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:37 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning.

No, you didn't. You said "if these numbers were any different, the universe would have been very different".

What you didn't do, and what you need to do in order to have any evidence for fine-tuning whatsoever, is show that those numbers could have been different.
You want proof that Epsilon, Lambda, Omega, etc can be different?
These are Laws of Physics that were established within the first 3 minutes of the Big Bang. During the first 10^37 seconds these laws were not fully established. So the answer to your question is:
Yes. The numbers can be different. In fact infinitesimally different during the first 10^37 seconds of the Big Bang.
Can we move on to the fine tuning argument now?
See Big Bang wiki for citation.
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