Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
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05-02-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 03:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Yes. The numbers can be different. In fact infinitesimally different during the first 3 mins of the Big Bang.

You have not established this. The Wikipedia articles you reference do not establish this. Simply saying that it is the case does not make it so.

And you still don't understand what the word "infinitesimally" means.

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05-02-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 03:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Can we move on to the fine tuning argument now?

The universe is not fine tuned for organic life in general, let alone human life in particular.

Either way, we have found organic life on one planet. Compare that one planet with the rest of the universe. How can you say that the universe is fine tuned for life?

Human life is an even worse example. Most of our home world is uninhabitable by our species.

And the universe is fine tuned?

Not to mention the fact that you have only one universe for comparison.

Before we were able to explore other planets (in person,w/telescopes or via probes) it was possible to speculate that life existed on planets like Mars, the Moon and Venus.

We only had one planet for comparison, the Earth.

Once we were able to explore other worlds we see that that is not the case.

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05-02-2017, 04:01 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning. You denied it on the basis that we need to examine other universes first before we can claim it was fine tuning.
I bet even if I could have done that you would still have denied the evidence on some other grounds.

There is no evidence for "fine tuning". You have nothing to compare any statistics to.
If indeed life can only exist within a certain band-width of many factors, (and we don't really know that yet), it's STILL not evidence for fine tuning. The properties of the universe could have "frozen out" of the Big Bang, with no "tuning", (highly improbable events happen all the time), and if there are an infinite number of universes, that would be expected. We do not have enough information to say anything about the probability for what we observe at this point.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-02-2017, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 04:13 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 03:41 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Yes. The numbers can be different. In fact infinitesimally different during the first 3 mins of the Big Bang.

You have not established this. The Wikipedia articles you reference do not establish this. Simply saying that it is the case does not make it so.

And you still don't understand what the word "infinitesimally" means.
I was still getting my citations when you replied.
Here you go:
http://physics.aps.org/articles/v5/142
"If one projects the Universe backward in time, it gets so hot and dense that the laws of physics on which inflation is based (classical general relativity) break down."

It says the laws of Physics break down during inflation.
That's 10^34 seconds into the lifespan of this Universe.
Can we move on to the Fine Tuning Argument now?
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05-02-2017, 04:19 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 04:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 12:27 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I already gave you statistical evidence for fine tuning. You denied it on the basis that we need to examine other universes first before we can claim it was fine tuning.
I bet even if I could have done that you would still have denied the evidence on some other grounds.

There is no evidence for "fine tuning". You have nothing to compare any statistics to.
If indeed life can only exist within a certain band-width of many factors, (and we don't really know that yet), it's STILL not evidence for fine tuning. The properties of the universe could have "frozen out" of the Big Bang, with no "tuning", (highly improbable events happen all the time), and if there are an infinite number of universes, that would be expected. We do not have enough information to say anything about the probability for what we observe at this point.
Not speaking about fine tuning for life here. You must have joined in late.
We are discussing fine tuning as an alternative to random causation based on statistical data at the start of the Universe.
The theory proposes that if the statistics are not in favor of random causation then the only alternative is none random causation.
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05-02-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 03:55 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 03:18 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Can we move on to the fine tuning argument now?

The universe is not fine tuned for organic life in general, let alone human life in particular.

Either way, we have found organic life on one planet. Compare that one planet with the rest of the universe. How can you say that the universe is fine tuned for life?

Human life is an even worse example. Most of our home world is uninhabitable by our species.

And the universe is fine tuned?

Not to mention the fact that you have only one universe for comparison.

Before we were able to explore other planets (in person,w/telescopes or via probes) it was possible to speculate that life existed on planets like Mars, the Moon and Venus.

We only had one planet for comparison, the Earth.

Once we were able to explore other worlds we see that that is not the case.
Not speaking about fine tuning for life here. You must have joined in late.
We are discussing fine tuning as an alternative to random causation based on statistical data at the start of the Universe.
The theory proposes that if the statistics are not in favor of random causation then the only alternative is none random causation.
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05-02-2017, 04:39 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  A claim that cannot be falsified is a garage dragon.
No, that is incorrect.
A garage dragon claim is one where the claim keeps changing while you keep coming backing with seemingly falsifying evidence.

(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Garage dragons do not exist.
There is no evidence that they don't exist.
Your counter claim is unsubstansiated and completely misses the point of Carl's analogy. Anyway, we both disagree on the meaning of the garage dragon, it make no sense for either of us to refer to this analogy when in discussion with each other.

(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 02:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, we don't know where to look for unicorns. We don't know their size, their colour, their diet, we know nothing about them, we don't know where to look because the claim is insufficient.

You don't seem to know what a unicorn is.
That's correct, I don't. The claim is insufficiently formed.
(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Here. Perhaps this will help.
Wiki isn't authoritative with regards to unicorns.

(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 02:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That's particularly vague, and you claim to have disproven the claims of all theists?

It isn't vague at all. It is, in fact, what you have been saying - we must deal with the claims as they are presented.
I'm saying that if a claim is insufficiently formulated then we are to ignore them rather than to conclude that they are false.
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05-02-2017, 04:54 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 04:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Not speaking about fine tuning for life here. You must have joined in late.

My bad.

(05-02-2017 04:28 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  We are discussing fine tuning as an alternative to random causation based on statistical data at the start of the Universe.

Carry on. Thumbsup

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05-02-2017, 05:25 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 04:08 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I was still getting my citations when you replied.
Here you go:
http://physics.aps.org/articles/v5/142
"If one projects the Universe backward in time, it gets so hot and dense that the laws of physics on which inflation is based (classical general relativity) break down."

It says the laws of Physics break down during inflation.

And, as per usual, you don't understand what that means.

Here's a hint: it does not mean that it was possible for the universal constants to be anything other than what they are.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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05-02-2017, 05:31 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 06:40 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 06:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, it isn't. We observe only local order, but the entropy of the entire universe is increasing.


And you are wrong; see above.


The fine-tuning argument is no argument at all; see above
We are speaking about entropic causes at the start of creation here.
Why did the topic suddenly jump to the entropic direction of the current universe?
How exactly does one rebut a none entropic creation statistic with current directional entropy statistics?

Are we playing one of those word games here?

No, we aren't. The entropy of the universe has been increasing since the get-go. The universe may well have started in a random state, neither ordered not disordered; the expansion of the universe alone increases entropy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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