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05-02-2017, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 07:51 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 06:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 05:59 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  In my last reply I stated that it is more likely that the universe had a designer, but we cannot prove that it is fine tuned for anything.

More likely? How did you calculate that? Or is it just a guess?

There is no evidence of design.
It's a guess. Anything with the word likely is a guess. It's the better guess between randomness or design.

Science assumes the standard models to be our best bet.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.
There is evidence of order out of disorder based on the standard model for inflation.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.
Order = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.
Our best bet = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.
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05-02-2017, 08:00 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
No. It's not a guess. Likely is a statement (qualitative) of probability. Greater than 50/50. That's not a "guess''. If you use the word "likely" you need a reason to do so.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-02-2017, 08:00 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 05:44 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 05:33 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If we are to believe that the cause of the universe prior to inflation is that of natural causation then something must have happened to cause the 6 universal constants to take on the properties they got after inflation.
These laws of physics went from being none existent to existent during inflation.

Once again, Shane, you do not actually understand what your own sources say. You do not understand even the basics of the topics that you are attempting to base your position on, and this results in your posts becoming incoherent messes.

The laws of physics did not suddenly pop into existence during the inflationary period. The models of them that physicists use simply fail to appropriately describe the condition of the universe at that time.

And even if they did just pop into existence there, you still have not established that they could have been anything other than what they are.

You really don't seem to understand a single thing about what you're talking about.
That's exactly what they are saying.
It's called the standard model of inflation.
It's a theory about the creation of the universe.
It is the best theory we have, hence it is called the standard model.
It's not a fact.
I'm not speaking about facts here. I'm speaking about our best bets based on purely scientific findings.

What do you think they mean by the "laws of physics break down during inflation"?
I think they mean they cannot be applied. If so then they do not exist at that point in time. They only exist after inflation is over.

Since you seem to think you understand this topic much better then answer the above question or stop trying to sound like you know better.
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05-02-2017, 08:07 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 08:16 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 07:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 05:33 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If we are to believe that the cause of the universe prior to inflation is that of natural causation then something must have happened to cause the 6 universal constants to take on the properties they got after inflation.
These laws of physics went from being none existent to existent during inflation.

What caused the change in the universe at this early stage?

1. Natural Causation. Otherwise known as randomness.
Or
2. Causation by design. Which requires a designer.

If it is random then the universe should have remained in a state closer to disorder than order. However this is not the case.
The universe after inflation is more in a state of order than disorder when compared to it's older state.

It can now be inferred that state of the universe is more likely to have been caused by a designer.

I'll add this in for unbeliever to gloat:
To determine if the order is finely tuned I would need to compare current laws of physics to alternative laws of physics to determine which ones were more likely to occur.
Since I do not have this data I cannot make the statement that the Universe is finely tuned.

Deism FTW

Nope. Not at all. All kinds of unwarranted assumptions.
An argument from ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
We don't know anything about the universe prior to the Big Bang, or even *at* the Big Bang.
It may not have been "caused" at that point. (Penrose Cycles of Time)
We don't know why the universal constants fell out the way they did. Neither do you.
95 % of the universe is unknown at this point. We can say nothing about it at this time.
There may be all sorts of other variables which at this point may be unknown.
Since we know of no "designer" and no evidence for any interaction after the constants "froze out" *design* is the least probable answer.

Deism is dismissed as premature nonsense. Classic god of the gaps.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ethansiegel/...a29cef69a8
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_(o..._disorder)

"2nd law of thermodynamics: Physicist Lord Kelvin stated it technically as follows: "There is no natural process the only result of which is to cool a heat reservoir and do external work." In more understandable terms, this law observes the fact that the useable energy in the universe is becoming less and less. Ultimately there would be no available energy left. Stemming from this fact we find that the most probable state for any natural system is one of disorder. All natural systems degenerate when left to themselves."
Unfortunately I'm not discussing facts here.
I'm discussing science's best bets.
I'm discussing the theory of inflation & how it relates to the laws of Physics.
There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer.
It's an argument about which is the better bet, randomness or design.

All designed systems degenerate when left to themselves also. I don't see why you brought that up. It doesn't detract from the argument that science's best bet is that we went from the disorderly "no laws of physics" to the very orderly "laws or physics" in the blink of an eye.
This is not evidence for randomness or disorder, it is evidence that science's best bet is that of design.
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05-02-2017, 08:11 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 08:23 PM by Chas.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 07:47 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 06:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  More likely? How did you calculate that? Or is it just a guess?

There is no evidence of design.
It's a guess. Anything with the word likely is a guess. It's the better guess between randomness or design.

Better how? By what measure?
Also, false dichotomy - those aren't the only choices.

Quote:Science assumes the standard models to be our best bet.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No, it is not assumed, it bolstered by evidence.

Quote:There is evidence of order out of disorder based on the standard model for inflation.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No, there is evidence of order in open systems. That order comes at the cost of increased disorder elsewhere.

Quote:Order = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No. Crystals are ordered, not designed.

Quote:Our best bet = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No. See above.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2017, 08:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 08:26 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 08:07 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Unfortunately I'm not discussing facts here.
I'm discussing science's best bets.
I'm discussing the theory of inflation & how it relates to the laws of Physics.
There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer.
It's an argument about which is the better bet, randomness or design.

Science doesn't make bets.
Nowhere does science say anything about design.
Explain how there can be design without a designer.

"There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer."
.... a non-sequitur.


http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html
"Third, inflation is the only theory that we know of that can explain the homogeneity and isotropy of the universe - that is, the uniformity of the universe. This uniformity is observed most clearly by looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation, which we view as the afterglow of the heat of the big bang. The intensity of this radiation is described by an effective temperature, and it is observed to have the same temperature in every direction to an accuracy of about one part in a hundred thousand, after we correct for our own motion through the cosmic background radiation. In other words, this radiation is incredibly smooth. As an analogy we can imagine a marble that has been ground so smoothly that its radius is uniform to one part in a hundred thousand. The marble would then be round to an accuracy of about a quarter of the wavelength of visible light, about as precise as the best optical lenses that can be manufactured with present-day technology." ...... Alan Guth


Order arises spontaneously in this universe.
http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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05-02-2017, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2017 08:42 PM by Agnostic Shane.)
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 08:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 07:47 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  It's a guess. Anything with the word likely is a guess. It's the better guess between randomness or design.

Science assumes the standard models to be our best bet.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No, it is not assumed, it bolstered by evidence.

Quote:There is evidence of order out of disorder based on the standard model for inflation.
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No, there is evidence of order in open systems. That order comes at the cost of increased disorder elsewhere.

Quote:Order = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No. Crystals are ordered, not designed.

Quote:Our best bet = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.

No. See above.
Sorry I should have specified closed systems.
The standard model for inflation is not described as an open system. There is no "elsewhere" in this scenario.
Yes or No?

Crystals are part of an open system, unlike inflation.
Yes or No?

Our best bet in a closed system = Design
Yes or No? Please state your reason if no.
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05-02-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 08:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 08:07 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Unfortunately I'm not discussing facts here.
I'm discussing science's best bets.
I'm discussing the theory of inflation & how it relates to the laws of Physics.
There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer.
It's an argument about which is the better bet, randomness or design.

Science doesn't make bets.
Nowhere does science say anything about design.
Explain how there can be design without a designer.

"There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer."
.... a non-sequitur.


http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html
"Third, inflation is the only theory that we know of that can explain the homogeneity and isotropy of the universe - that is, the uniformity of the universe. This uniformity is observed most clearly by looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation, which we view as the afterglow of the heat of the big bang. The intensity of this radiation is described by an effective temperature, and it is observed to have the same temperature in every direction to an accuracy of about one part in a hundred thousand, after we correct for our own motion through the cosmic background radiation. In other words, this radiation is incredibly smooth. As an analogy we can imagine a marble that has been ground so smoothly that its radius is uniform to one part in a hundred thousand. The marble would then be round to an accuracy of about a quarter of the wavelength of visible light, about as precise as the best optical lenses that can be manufactured with present-day technology." ...... Alan Guth


Order arises spontaneously in this universe.
http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html
I'm not against inflation. I'm actually using it to prove my point.
I'm showing that inflation theory suggests all laws break down during inflation which brings this closed system into disorder & randomness yet somehow it becomes orderly & full of laws after inflation.

Within closed systems disorder can only lead to order by design.
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05-02-2017, 09:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 08:49 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I'm not against inflation. I'm actually using it to prove my point.
I'm showing that inflation theory suggests all laws break down during inflation which brings this closed system into disorder & randomness yet somehow it becomes orderly & full of laws after inflation.

Within closed systems disorder can only lead to order by design.

Entropy and disorder are not equivalent.

Entropy does not suggest that the laws of physics cease operating at any point.

The phrase "the laws of physics break down" does not imply a literal lack of physical laws. It refers instead to the models of those laws which scientists use becoming insufficient to describe what is occurring.

If a design is being enacted, the system is, by definition, not closed, because it is being acted upon by another entity or system.

You do not understand the terms that you are trying to use.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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05-02-2017, 09:20 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(05-02-2017 08:49 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 08:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Science doesn't make bets.
Nowhere does science say anything about design.
Explain how there can be design without a designer.

"There are no facts & no evidence for inflation so this is not an argument about Evidence of a Designer."
.... a non-sequitur.


http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html
"Third, inflation is the only theory that we know of that can explain the homogeneity and isotropy of the universe - that is, the uniformity of the universe. This uniformity is observed most clearly by looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation, which we view as the afterglow of the heat of the big bang. The intensity of this radiation is described by an effective temperature, and it is observed to have the same temperature in every direction to an accuracy of about one part in a hundred thousand, after we correct for our own motion through the cosmic background radiation. In other words, this radiation is incredibly smooth. As an analogy we can imagine a marble that has been ground so smoothly that its radius is uniform to one part in a hundred thousand. The marble would then be round to an accuracy of about a quarter of the wavelength of visible light, about as precise as the best optical lenses that can be manufactured with present-day technology." ...... Alan Guth


Order arises spontaneously in this universe.
http://www.counterbalance.org/cq-guth/evide-frame.html
I'm not against inflation. I'm actually using it to prove my point.
I'm showing that inflation theory suggests all laws break down during inflation which brings this closed system into disorder & randomness yet somehow it becomes orderly & full of laws after inflation.

Within closed systems disorder can only lead to order by design.

When do you plan to show that ?
http://www.edge.org/conversation/alan_gu...y-universe
There is nowhere in science that design is discussed. Ever.

You're contradicting yourself.
If "all laws break down" then so does "within closed systems disorder can only lead to order by design".

We don't know enough to posit ANYTHING.
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.120...61003/meta

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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