Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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06-02-2017, 11:32 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 04:53 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  I wont disagree here.
But if it is, in more cases than not, order generally points to design would it not be a fair assumption?
Something far more orderly like say the name of God etched across a constellation maybe, should be an indication of design.
Perhaps the name of god is etched across the sky, but what is the name of god and what language is it written in, what characters are being used?

Wouldn't it be easier for the god to come to earth, meet everyone simultaneously, perform amazing tricks, bestow great knowledge, and just hang out with us, answer questions and develop a real relationship.

In your statistical likeliness endeavours you haven't addressed anything regarding the liklihood for the existence of an intelligent designer.
For example, what is the designer made of prior to the existence of matter. How did the designer become intelligent prior to the existence of things? How does the designer interact with reality? How does the designer create reality? How does the designer do anything prior to the existence of time?
It seems to me, highly unlikely that an intelligence could exist prior to existence and data itself.
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06-02-2017, 11:38 AM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  God is perceived through revelation. Sort of like an author being revealed through his work.

Can you expand upon what you mean by this? What sort of "revelation". The physical existence of a human author is determined in part by the book he wrote, held in my hand. Not so your god.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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06-02-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 11:38 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Can you expand upon what you mean by this? What sort of "revelation". The physical existence of a human author is determined in part by the book he wrote, held in my hand. Not so your god.

Any form of teleological perception would suffice, and form of intentionality would do.

So if one perceives a moral order, inherent meaning, purpose, or any factor that perceives as product of foresight, design, etc... is sufficient in and of themselves for a God belief.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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06-02-2017, 04:16 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 03:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So if one perceives a moral order, inherent meaning, purpose, or any factor that perceives as product of foresight, design, etc... is sufficient in and of themselves for a God belief.

I'd say so. Perceptions vary by individual after all.

#sigh
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06-02-2017, 06:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 05:40 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  You are, and have always been, doing nothing but wasting time with "you can't call it that" rather than actually dealing with the argument.
Your argument is a non starter, it is a strawman.
No theist other than deists take on a belief in an undetectable invisible god that doesn't interact with existence or the supposed afterlife.

Since the deist god is exactly what I am applying it to, it is hardly a straw man.

You don't seem to have actually read my posts. Which is funny, considering how much issue you apparently take with them.

(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  So you know what a unicorn is, even though you believe they don't exist.
That's a special kind of special right there.

I know what a dragon is, even though they don't exist. I know what the Death Star is, even though it doesn't exist. I know who Captain Jack Sparrow is, even though he doesn't exist.

As I said, if you want to make a fool of yourself in public, it's no skin off my nose, but don't expect me to join you.

(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  God claims are insufficiently formed, they have no falsifiable criteria.

...Are you able to offer your proof on the Christian god. Is it expected to be detectable? How, when and where is it to be detectable?

Yes, they do. You might try taking a look at the Old Testament.

Your entire position here seems to rest on you strawmanning reality itself so that no religion makes any sort of falsifiable claim about, say, global floods, or fire from the heavens, or anything else. I have to wonder what alternate universe you are posting from, because it certainly isn't the same one the rest of us live in.

(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There are nebulously-defined claims made about these deities as well, and pointing out that these are incoherent is also valid. But this does not stop us from disproving these entities' existence by investigating the more complete claims, or from stating quite plainly that these more nebulous claims are also bunk.

When a Christian says "you have inherited original sin", we are perfectly justified in laughing in their face. The fact that they cannot sufficiently define "original sin" does not weaken the case for disproving its existence. It strengthens it.
They haven't provided any falsifiable criteria. We cannot falsify it because the claim is insufficiently formulated to evaluate.

(05-02-2017 02:50 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There are nebulously-defined claims made about these deities as well, and pointing out that these are incoherent is also valid. But this does not stop us from disproving these entities' existence by investigating the more complete claims, or from stating quite plainly that these more nebulous claims are also bunk.

When a Christian says "you have inherited original sin", we are perfectly justified in laughing in their face. The fact that they cannot sufficiently define "original sin" does not weaken the case for disproving its existence. It strengthens it.

Again, I have to wonder if you've read any of the things that you are trying to respond to.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-02-2017, 06:36 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 05:09 AM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  What you claim is that randomness and design are not mutually exclusive.

You cannot read.

There is nothing else to be said. You simply are incapable of reading for comprehension. That statement, whether I grant it as true or not, is entirely unrelated to any sort of point that I made in the post you are ostensibly responding to.

You lack the cognitive ability to actually participate in this discussion, Shane. Leave, and come back when you have learned to pay attention to what is said to you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-02-2017, 06:45 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(05-02-2017 12:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Truth is truth regardless of who you are. The laws of logic and rationality, what is real and not real, and so on do not change depending on who is looking at them.

It does not.

This seems to be a very common atheists delusion, this sort of tendency to imagine that they themselves don’t exist, presenting a projection of some objectively removed being which they clearly are not.

What part of that statement, even in the most drug-addled haze imaginable, has any sort of connection to what I just said?

You really ought to stop making up fictional windmills to tilt at, Tom. You would look much less silly and pretentious if you actually dealt with the positions presented to you, rather than try to strawman your opponent all the time.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What any person holds as true, is a matter of personal interpretation.

What is actually true is not.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Such as: “”No god exists" is the null hypothesis””, which doesn’t follow

Yes, it does. Or, rather, it is the null hypothesis based on all evidence currently... well. In evidence, in fact.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s the equivalent of stating the position that we’re not a cosmic puddle is the null hypothesis, and declaring that position as true by fiat.

That's literally the exact opposite of how the null hypothesis works.

Do you know what "null hypothesis" means, Tom? Because I really don't think that you do.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Right, the lack of evidence that we’re a cosmic puddle, that we’re just a some cosmic fluke, is evidence that this position is false.

We have evidence for that, Tom. Sticking your fingers in your ears doesn't make it go away.

In case you're curious, look up the theories of abiogenesis and evolution. Then look up the definition of "null hypothesis", because I know you didn't bother when I mentioned it last time. Then consider how that applies to the question of how life in this universe originated.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Immaterial things are still detectable. Gravity, electromagnetism, and so on.

Except none of these are immaterial, physical forces, physical interactions, are all material Hence the reason gravity and electromagnetism, don’t falsely materialism or physicalism.

Ah, so you are just playing word games, then, and we are in garage dragon territory. Wonderful. Glad we cleared that up.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Presumably, you meant to say that most theists believe God is undetectable, which would place them under the garage dragon category. But it doesn't actually matter, because in either case, we can still be certain that it does not exist.

No I didn’t mean to say that. God is perceived through revelation.

Which is indistinguishable from people making shit up, which places us quite firmly in garage dragon territory, natch.

(06-02-2017 08:01 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If teleology is true, if human life is intentional etc… we can conclude that God exists, without needing God’s ectoplasm, or some equivalent of big foot’s DNA sample.

If one concludes that life has intrinsic meaning, and value, that objective morality exists, etc.. a God/Creator belief can follow just by order of these beliefs, as a condition of possibility.

But since you can't actually demonstrate that any of those beliefs are actually true, it's rather irrelevant, and we are still entirely justified in concluding that your god does not exist.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-02-2017, 09:27 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 06:30 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  So you know what a unicorn is, even though you believe they don't exist.
That's a special kind of special right there.

I know what a dragon is, even though they don't exist. I know what the Death Star is, even though it doesn't exist. I know who Captain Jack Sparrow is, even though he doesn't exist.

As I said, if you want to make a fool of yourself in public, it's no skin off my nose, but don't expect me to join you.
OK then.
How big is a unicorn? What is their diet? Are they aggressive creatures? Do they mate for life or is there a dominate male that gets to service the females?
What colours do they come it? What habitat do they live in?

I'm really interested to know, given that they probably don't exist and no-one has ever seen or observed one.
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06-02-2017, 09:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 09:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  OK then.
How big is a unicorn? What is their diet? Are they aggressive creatures? Do they mate for life or is there a dominate male that gets to service the females?
What colours do they come it? What habitat do they live in?

I'm really interested to know, given that they probably don't exist and no-one has ever seen or observed one.

(06-02-2017 06:30 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  As I said, if you want to make a fool of yourself in public, it's no skin off my nose, but don't expect me to join you.

If you want to continue to assert that we don't know enough about the Death Star to say that it doesn't exist because we don't know what variant of berillium powers its planet-shattering ion cannon, you are free to do so.

I am not going to indulge your idiocy.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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06-02-2017, 09:36 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(06-02-2017 06:30 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 12:27 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Your argument is a non starter, it is a strawman.
No theist other than deists take on a belief in an undetectable invisible god that doesn't interact with existence or the supposed afterlife.

Since the deist god is exactly what I am applying it to, it is hardly a straw man.
OK, sure, well with regards to the deist god, I expect that believers consider that this god magically created the universe and then took the rest of eternity off.

So they don't actually expect to see the god or pray to it or anything.
It would be like my great, great, great grandfather having sown his seed so that eventually I was born.

My great, great, great grandfather is dead now, unobservable and all. He actually did exist though. I have millions of them going back 5 billion years of history.
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