Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
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07-02-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 12:52 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:10 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There is no definition of what a unicorn or vampire "actually is", Stevil.
And yet you claim to know what one is and criticise me for proclaiming that I have no idea what one is.

Yes, thank you for demonstrating once again that you did not actually read my post.

We already knew that, of course, but thank you all the same.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-02-2017, 01:26 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2017 11:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Try Rational Wiki
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/The_Dragon_in_My_Garage

Read the first paragraph of that more carefully because you still do not understand it.
FFS,

What Unbeliever and yourself apparently do not understand is that there are often insufficient claims. And it seems you don't understand how to deal with insufficient claims. You want to jump to the conclusion that the negative of the claim is true.

Carl Sagan was getting the point across that some claims are insufficient, at no point was he saying that he has proof that the dragon doesn't exist. He was merely saying that the claim was insufficient. It is clear as day.

And logically speaking we can work this out for ourselves, we don't even need Carl's analogy. A claim that does not offer falsifiable criteria is an insufficiently formulated claim. It's argument cannot be evaluated. We cannot say it is true or false, just that the claim does not offer criteria to assess whether it is true or false.
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07-02-2017, 01:29 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Carl Sagan was getting the point across that some claims are insufficient,...

Ill-formed even.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 10:04 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 09:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  In fact the one thing I frequently ask atheists, is for the reasons why I should believe my position is false?

Which position?

That God exists, why should I believe that God doesn't exist.

Quote:Yet no one has been particularly keen on taking me up on that request, rather they tend to complain about shifting the burden of proof, etc..

I've stated that position several times already in the last couple of weeks already.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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07-02-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 10:04 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Which position?

That God exists, why should I believe that God doesn't exist.

Lack of evidence.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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07-02-2017, 01:38 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 12:57 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Theists don't provide falsifiable claims

Yes, they do.

Again, I don't think you actually know what the source material says. There's this whole thing about a global flood, and a few plagues, and the parting of a sea, and all sorts of other things. And that's just one god.
There are many, many Christians who do not take the global flood story as literal.

http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/do-cat...tual-event
Quote: the story of Noah’s Ark employs a great deal of figurative language to express an absolute truth about God and our relationship with him: when we sin, it is as if we are drowning, however, God will spare us if we live justly as Noah did.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstro...facts.html
Quote:You assume that I have to “reconcile” all this stuff. I need not do any such thing. The biblical text doesn’t require that; nor does the Church. The Church doesn’t require belief in flood geology or catastrophism

Quote:Lastly, the Bible doesn’t require the Flood (an actual historical event, as indicated several times in the NT) to have been literally global, as we see in the treatment of the Flood in The Catholic Encyclopedia

The problem is, when you as an atheist take a book like the bible (which people interpret in many different ways) and you go all literal and prove to yourself that you have proven it to be false then you jump up on your soap box, get all high and mighty and arrogant and proclaim that you know the "Truth".
All you are doing is making a fool of yourself. Looking like some child who has no understanding of the bible or the people's beliefs. Insisting on a strawman is idiotic.
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07-02-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There are many, many Christians who do not take the global flood story as literal.

I am aware of this. It changes precisely nothing.

They still make specific claims about how their god supposedly interacts with the world. These are either detectable, in which case we can demonstrate them to be false, or not, in which case it is a garage dragon.

You really seem to be incapable of grasping this fundamental point. You just spend pages upon pages dancing around repeating the same broken arguments over and over while never addressing the actual argument.

(07-02-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  The problem is, when you as an atheist take a book like the bible (which people interpret in many different ways) and you go all literal and prove to yourself that you have proven it to be false then you jump up on your soap box, get all high and mighty and arrogant and proclaim that you know the "Truth".

I don't. My argument deals explicitly with their claims, not mine. You just continually say "well different people claim different things", as if that actually changes anything. A hint: it does not.

You do not understand my position, despite me making it quite plain throughout this thread and explaining it more times than I care to count. Do not take it upon yourself to try and tell me what I am doing when you have demonstrated, repeatedly and consistently, that you are incapable of reading my posts for comprehension.

(07-02-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  All you are doing is making a fool of yourself.

Well, someone here is, anyway.

I think it might be the person who insists on saying that we don't know what unicorns are.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-02-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:38 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 01:34 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  That God exists, why should I believe that God doesn't exist.

Lack of evidence.

I actually go with Axman's shaver here instead. If God has no explanatory power what reason do I have to add it my metaphysics? Just gonna have to shave it off again later.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 01:56 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
How do you reconcile both these statement of yours.
On the one hand you say there is no definition of unicorns.
On the other hand you say that you know what a unicorn is based on what you read in fantasy stories.

I wonder if Stephen Hawking reads through Sci Fi books in order to understand what a black hole actually is.

(07-02-2017 12:10 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  There is no definition of what a unicorn or vampire "actually is", Stevil.


Unbeliever Wrote:
(07-02-2017 01:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  All you are doing is making a fool of yourself.

Well, someone here is, anyway.

I think it might be the person who insists on saying that we don't know what unicorns are.
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07-02-2017, 02:07 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  On the one hand you say there is no definition of unicorns.

No, Stevil. Once again, you did not actually read my post.

A hint: look at the "actually is". Do you see the quotes there? That means that it was - and bear with me on this - a quote. From you. As in referring to your argument, not mine.

You have this strange notion that there is some nebulous, unknown thing floating around out there somewhere - a "true definition" of the word "unicorn" that necessarily has some connection to a real animal. Or that there might be, at least. But there isn't, because there is no real animal called "unicorn".

And that doesn't matter, because we still have a definition of "unicorn". It demonstrably does not have a connection to a real animal. Therefore, it is not real. It is fictional. Unicorns do not exist.

And no. This would not cease to be true if you named some other animal "unicorn" later. It would just be something different referred to using the same word.

Your entire "argument" basically comes down to saying that we can't know that Johnny Ratt, a person who was supposedly my grandfather, didn't exist, because even though I demonstrably do not have a grandfather named Johnny Ratt there might be someone else out there who is not my grandfather but happens to have the same name. You're talking about a completely different entity and pretending that using the same label makes it equivalent.

It's the most incoherent, blithering idiocy I've heard argued here in a long time, and that is saying something.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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