Poll: Atheists only: Do you believe no god(s) exists?
Yes, I believe no god(s) exists
No, I do not believe no god(s) exists
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For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
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07-02-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 02:16 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Design is inevitable

And we are wholly responsible for it.

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 01:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 12:56 PM)Chas Wrote:  Read the first paragraph of that more carefully because you still do not understand it.
FFS,

What Unbeliever and yourself apparently do not understand is that there are often insufficient claims. And it seems you don't understand how to deal with insufficient claims. You want to jump to the conclusion that the negative of the claim is true.

Carl Sagan was getting the point across that some claims are insufficient, at no point was he saying that he has proof that the dragon doesn't exist. He was merely saying that the claim was insufficient. It is clear as day.

And logically speaking we can work this out for ourselves, we don't even need Carl's analogy. A claim that does not offer falsifiable criteria is an insufficiently formulated claim. It's argument cannot be evaluated. We cannot say it is true or false, just that the claim does not offer criteria to assess whether it is true or false.

What part of:
Sagan Wrote:Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
don't you understand?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 03:36 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 01:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  FFS,

What Unbeliever and yourself apparently do not understand is that there are often insufficient claims. And it seems you don't understand how to deal with insufficient claims. You want to jump to the conclusion that the negative of the claim is true.

Carl Sagan was getting the point across that some claims are insufficient, at no point was he saying that he has proof that the dragon doesn't exist. He was merely saying that the claim was insufficient. It is clear as day.

And logically speaking we can work this out for ourselves, we don't even need Carl's analogy. A claim that does not offer falsifiable criteria is an insufficiently formulated claim. It's argument cannot be evaluated. We cannot say it is true or false, just that the claim does not offer criteria to assess whether it is true or false.

What part of:
Sagan Wrote:Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
don't you understand?

It really is like that first thread all over again. It would bring a tear of nostalgia to my eye, if it didn't feel like beating my forehead against a brick wall.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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07-02-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 02:16 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If a law went from being undefined to defined then system's state is different. It's not something physical you are comparing here.

You have stated this in absurd terms. Physical laws are human-made descriptions of observed behaviors. That is all they are.
If the behavior of the universe changed over time, then it is purely physical that is being compared.

The rest of your post is gobbledygook based on your bizarre understanding of what a physical law is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-02-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:51 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If a law went from being undefined to defined then system's state is different.

Our understanding of the system state could be what's different.
Correct my equations:
Laws = order.
No laws = disorder
Order = Design
Design = Designer
Designer = Consciousness
Consciousness = Intelligence
Intelligence = Entity
Pre Life Entity with the power to create laws = Creator

Side note:
No 2 crystals are alike. Crystals are not ordered.
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07-02-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:36 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  It really is like that first thread all over again. It would bring a tear of nostalgia to my eye, if it didn't feel like beating my forehead against a brick wall.

[Image: NoExit_cover_zpsxda2vlsr.gif]

#sigh
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07-02-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:38 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 03:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Our understanding of the system state could be what's different.
Correct my equations:
Laws = order.
No laws = disorder
Order = Design
Design = Designer
Designer = Consciousness
Consciousness = Intelligence
Intelligence = Entity
Pre Life Entity with the power to create laws = Creator

Side note:
No 2 crystals are alike. Crystals are not ordered.

Without nitpicking the previous assumptions before the last one, WTF is a “Pre Life Entity”?

You might as well skip all the other “equations” and simply say, “insert cosmological argument here”.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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07-02-2017, 03:44 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 02:16 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  If a law went from being undefined to defined then system's state is different. It's not something physical you are comparing here.

You have stated this in absurd terms. Physical laws are human-made descriptions of observed behaviors. That is all they are.
If the behavior of the universe changed over time, then it is purely physical that is being compared.

The rest of your post is gobbledygook based on your bizarre understanding of what a physical law is.
You ar using semantics
Laws are not physical things.
Physical laws are not physical things.
The laws of the universe are not the universe.
At no point was I comparing a physical thing.
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07-02-2017, 03:47 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:44 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 03:38 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  Correct my equations:
Laws = order.
No laws = disorder
Order = Design
Design = Designer
Designer = Consciousness
Consciousness = Intelligence
Intelligence = Entity
Pre Life Entity with the power to create laws = Creator

Side note:
No 2 crystals are alike. Crystals are not ordered.

Without nitpicking the previous assumptions before the last one, WTF is a “Pre Life Entity”?

You might as well skip all the other “equations” and simply say, “insert cosmological argument here”.
An Entity that existed before life existed.
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07-02-2017, 03:49 PM
RE: For Atheists: Do you believe no god(s) exist?
(07-02-2017 03:47 PM)Agnostic Shane Wrote:  
(07-02-2017 03:44 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Without nitpicking the previous assumptions before the last one, WTF is a “Pre Life Entity”?

You might as well skip all the other “equations” and simply say, “insert cosmological argument here”.
An Entity that existed before life existed.

You don’t see the contradiction in that statement do you?

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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